Usyk may actually be the Heavyweight Goat

[Toffee]

I'm not sure anyone fights enough to match the past greats.

I rate Usyk very highly. He might be as good as I've seen. But how many top wins will he actually get?

And while he's still fighting, he can be beaten, and that will affect his legacy. You can't talk GOAT about a still active fighter.

[Haka]

I just have this premonition that Usyk loses to Daniel Dubois on Saturday.

If they fought for the first time maybe but the scare factor is baked after in getting folded up like nothing and once Usyk knows the ins and outs of your game it is hard to circumvent it with the limited tools Dubois has.

[Willow The Wisp]

Who of that list beat 6 times back to back 250lbs+ SHWs ?

Ok, I get you now. Determination of "greatness" is something that requires a formation of criteria. Record, fame, longevity, great opponents beaten, limited losses, demonstrations of skill, power, resiliency, innovation; and the list goes on.

Usyk did beat big boys Joshua, Dubois and Fury and did so a total of 5 times (maybe six after this coming weekend); and I agree that that's a feather in Usyk's cap, for sure.

Of course, as a standard sized heavyweight of the 70s and 80's like Ali, Norton, Holmes, Bobick, Page, Dokes, Coetzee, etcetera; Usyk himself kind of serves to buck the idea that bigger is better, right?

Even so, we can sure add that to the things that make him great.

[DeeMoney]

They were all unbeaten or prime and highest ranked at the time just like Dubois who earned his shot the proper way. If the weight is irrelevant then which HW has such a string of wins against similar sized opponents ?

Nobody is saying weight is irrelevant, but its just a single factor and not enough on its own to declare someone the greatest.

Your argument though is well insulated though, as size is one of the few factors that can be clearly quantified. Someone could be faster, or hit harder, better defensively, but you cant quantify it. So you have an easy position to fall back on and defend. Based on your argument, size=superiority.

That being written, David Haye beat Valuev, Ruiz, and Harrison three fights in a row. I'd bet there average size is on par with Fury, AJ, and DD.

All that is to say, I would listen to a ln argument about Usyk being the GOAT, and I personally view him to be an ATG. I know some argue there arent enough great opponents fir him to earn that status nowadays, or that modern fighters dont fight enough to build a GOAT resume, but I think that we as rational observers can dig deeper, past just accumulated resume accomplishments.
But, I dont think simply beating the three big quality fighters, without digging deeper into the fights themselves, is argument enough.

[Hustle]

Olympic gold medal. Perfect record as a pro. Unbeaten undisputed cruiserweight champion. Unbeaten undisputed heavyweight champion. He totally cleaned out two divisions and is still going strong at 38. Never seen hurt, never knocked down. This ring genius with the most multi dimensional style we ever saw just keeps beating everyone, bigger, smaller, stronger, longer, whatever, they all get beaten the same. He beat everyone he had to beat, everyone in his era. There is no such thing as a weak era, the perception of eras is what varies. Every era is as strong as the other. Usyk is unbeatable. I am confident he would figure out and solve any style in history including Ali, Lennox, Klitschko, Holmes, Marciano, Dempsey, Louis, Tunney, Johnson, Foreman, Frazier, etc. I see no reason why Usyk would not be able to solve the styles puzzles. The man can't be beaten. Usyk is the goat.

Holyfield did it first

[Bennyleonard99]

[QUOTE=Hustle;n32500291]

Holyfield did it first[/QUOTE
Holyfield had an incredible career and I was fortunate to witness all of it from Olympics to Qawi to Buster to Bowe, Mike, Lennox. But he lost a bunch of times. Usyk has been perfect...

[JimRaynor]

His fans are desperate to add them in because they know Shot Fury and Shot AJ do not an ATG resume make.

If you ignore "star power" and look at the form, there's a very real argument if Usyk wins on the weekend that Dubois 2 would be his best win.

Yes I'm serious.

And people want to say he's the best ever with a best win of Dubois?

God forbid if Usyk LOSES then that would mean he never beat any heavyweight who was in their prime.

Shot Fury, and Shot AJ? I'd like to know where you buy your drugs.

AJ Had all the belts minus the WBC, was considered THE CHAMP, and was 31 years old, Usyk was 34.

Fury had the WBC belt, was undefeated, was the lineal champ and was 3 years younger than Usyk when they fought.

[NihonJim]

Shot Fury, and Shot AJ? I'd like to know where you buy your drugs.

AJ Had all the belts minus the WBC, was considered THE CHAMP, and was 31 years old, Usyk was 34.

Fury had the WBC belt, was undefeated, was the lineal champ and was 3 years younger than Usyk when they fought.

AJ was champion by default, after being SMASHED TO BITS by average Andy Ruiz he won the rematch when Ruiz ATE himself out of contention, he had one defence vs an ancient Kubrat Pulev where he looked dreadful, and Usyk was basically the first in shape contender to get to him.

Fury spent the best part of 3 years as an obese crack ******* addict, weighing 400lbs. He made a miracle comeback and managed to beat the skinny basketballer, he looked poor in Wilder 3, poor vs Chisora and AWFUL vs novice Ngannou where he should have lost.

Both AJ and Fury were in terrible runs of form at the time Usyk faced them, both looked absoloutley ready to be taken.

Don't just spout stats that don't mean anything, look at what happens IN THE RING, and if you truly think Usyk beating that AJ and that Fury was remarkable ATG wins then you are far too easily impressed.

[Haka]

Ok, I get you now. Determination of "greatness" is something that requires a formation of criteria. Record, fame, longevity, great opponents beaten, limited losses, demonstrations of skill, power, resiliency, innovation; and the list goes on.

Usyk did beat big boys Joshua, Dubois and Fury and did so a total of 5 times (maybe six after this coming weekend); and I agree that that's a feather in Usyk's cap, for sure.

Of course, as a standard sized heavyweight of the 70s and 80's like Ali, Norton, Holmes, Bobick, Page, Dokes, Coetzee, etcetera; Usyk himself kind of serves to buck the idea that bigger is better, right?

Even so, we can sure add that to the things that make him great.

In theory bigger might not be better, in practice there are weight classes and SHWs being the most dominant the past 30 years the moment they started to show up in the first place. In theory all your listed boxers were not SHW yet in practice they were not around altogether either in a significant way. In theory the listed boxers would have won against any SHW yet in practice almost none of them got a similar meaningful string of wins.

[JimRaynor]

AJ was champion by default, after being SMASHED TO BITS by average Andy Ruiz he won the rematch when Ruiz ATE himself out of contention, he had one defence vs an ancient Kubrat Pulev where he looked dreadful, and Usyk was basically the first in shape contender to get to him.

Fury spent the best part of 3 years as an obese crack ******* addict, weighing 400lbs. He made a miracle comeback and managed to beat the skinny basketballer, he looked poor in Wilder 3, poor vs Chisora and AWFUL vs novice Ngannou where he should have lost.

Both AJ and Fury were in terrible runs of form at the time Usyk faced them, both looked absoloutley ready to be taken.

Don't just spout stats that don't mean anything, look at what happens IN THE RING, and if you truly think Usyk beating that AJ and that Fury was remarkable ATG wins then you are far too easily impressed.

You can literally pick apart any boxer using this poor logic. Lennox Lewis got SMASHED TO BITS by less than average McCall and Rahman, Wladimir got SMASHED TO BITS by average Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster and way below average Ross Purity, Rid**** Bowe got SMASHED TO BITS by a rookie in Golota, Mike Tyson got SMASHED TO BITS by subpar Buster Douglas and an old Holyfield. Holyfield got dropped and nearly lost to Bert Cooper and did lose against average Michael Moore. Michael Moore got KOed by a 45 year old George Foreman.


AJ and Fury were both THE Heavyweight champs, the best in the division, and in Fury's case he was undefeated and the lineal champ, both Fury and AJ were far younger than Usyk and they lost not once but twice. Daniel Dubois was third on that list, and he lost as well. You can do all the mental gymnastics you like to discredit Usyks victories against the best the heavyweight division had to offer, but win or lose com Saturday there is absolutely no question that Usyk accomplishments at heavyweight stack up with any past great fighter.