When did the 9-belt era begin?

[kafkod]

It's a debate that cannot be satisfactorily resolved. The problem with the term 'undisputed' is that it confers upon the sanctioning bodies an authority I don't think they deserve.

You might not like an 'imaginary' title but I don't particularly like arbitrary authorities either.

The 'three belt era' was tolerable, but since the WBOgus was 'recognised', along with all the secondary belts, I think looking to these nepotistic private businesses for divisional clarity has become untenable.

(FYI billeau2)

The secondary title belts are really nothing but glorified, monetized mandatory positions. Nobody takes them seriously, except fanboys of some the fighters who hold them.

Whether the sanctioning bodies deserve the authority they have is irrelevant. The fact is, they do have that authority, and that's why boxers want to fight for their belts, promoters want to promote those fights and fans want to watch them.

Usyk isn't recognised as the "real" heavyweight champ because he won a mythical lineal crown from Fury, but because he took Fury's WBC belt and became the first undisputed world HW champion of the 4 belt era.


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[kafkod]

No, "Bill believes that a few regulating bodies, promoters and all else have their place... Including lineal titles in the Heavyweight division." The Lineal is one way of accepting a champion and depends upon the power of the fans to exersize their power... It is hardly imaginery.

I am beginning to feel like the fact that there are too many self promoting authorities, bad promoters is being blamed on the lineal wanting its place at the table lol. It is not the fans fault that there are too many regulating bodies AND... The fact that there are too many such organizations does not mean that a good one should not exist.

You and Marg really got this twisted... Maybe it is my fault the way I expressed it? At any rate. THIS is my point. Not that no other such influences, power bases should exist.

The fans don't have any power to exercise, which is a good thing, because if they did, boxing would descend into chaos. Without any recognised central authority, to quote the great W B Yeats:

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned"

[Coverdale]

The fans don't have any power to exercise, which is a good thing, because if they did, boxing would descend into chaos. Without any recognised central authority, to quote the graet W B Yeates:

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned"

Which comes in the form of nepotistic private businesses run by two families primarily. That's an authority worth challenging.

[kafkod]

Which comes in the form of nepotistic private businesses run by two families primarily. That's an authority worth challenging.

If we, as fans, could kick the WBA and WBC out of the sport, I would be first in line to put the boot in!

[billeau2]

The fans don't have any power to exercise, which is a good thing, because if they did, boxing would descend into chaos. Without any recognised central authority, to quote the great W B Yeats:

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned"

What a silly thing to say... Ridiculous. You know I have a friend who helps me with a development we are building and he once lectured me on salesmen. His point was, "Nothing gets done anywhere with no sales guy." And he was right...

BOXING IS FOR THE FANS. No fans? No nuthin... You really are becoming more and more silly in your arguments. And again, Nobody said we do not need regulating bodies, read the posts. You spread this crap and people with legit beefs buy it. Let me reiterate I never said we do not need a regulating body. As I just explained in the post to you which you ignored completely.

Tell me this: Why do you keep saying the lineal would be great for Women's boxing? that makes no sense to me... If you do not like it for men's boxing why use it for the women?

[kafkod]

What a silly thing to say... Ridiculous. You know I have a friend who helps me with a development we are building and he once lectured me on salesmen. His point was, "Nothing gets done anywhere with no sales guy." And he was right...

BOXING IS FOR THE FANS. No fans? No nuthin... You really are becoming more and more silly in your arguments. And again, Nobody said we do not need regulating bodies, read the posts. You spread this crap and people with legit beefs buy it. Let me reiterate I never said we do not need a regulating body. As I just explained in the post to you which you ignored completely.

Tell me this: Why do you keep saying the lineal would be great for Women's boxing? that makes no sense to me... If you do not like it for men's boxing why use it for the women?

I've never said anything lineal titles in women's boxing. i have have no interest in women's boxing.

And I didn't say anything about boxing not being for the fans, I said the fans have no power to create titles and award them to fighters. That is a ridiculous, idiotic idea. The only power fans have is the power to decide whether to pay to watch a particular fight or not. That's as far as it goes.

[Marchegiano]

Thank you for this. I want to ask one question and challenge you on one point:

• Why has the IBO not succeeded in becoming a major belt?
• Is 'super' and 'regular' belts actually want Lennox suggested or just how the WBA decided to interpret him? I gather he was calling for box-offs between bodies to allow for a single mandatory challenger.

IBO: They simply lack support. Official recognition is a circlejerk between member who were already recognized. Fans could potentially force an unofficial major body similar to fans' unofficial major ratings in TBRB and Ring, but IBO doesn't have that support either. Rich people have tried in the past and while their failure may be true what is also true is it would be possible with enough promotion, PPV deals and such. Finally, governments, the IBO does not enjoy enough government support to force their position as a major.


On Lennox and the WBA:

https://web.archive.org/web/20080222175427/http://www.wbaonline.com/wchampionships/SuperChmpnsip.htm

WBA SUPER CHAMPIONSHIPS

DEFINITION

The SUPER WORLD CHAMPION CATEGORY OR UNDISPUTED WORLD CHAMPION was created for those World Champions who hold the title of two or more organizations recognized by the WBA, like the World Boxing Council (WBC), the International Boxing Federation (IBF) and the World Boxing Organization (WBO).

The creation of the category of SUPER WORLD CHAMPIONS or UNDISPUTED WORLD CHAMPIONS was born from a suggestion sent to us by Lennox Lewis, World Boxing Association former Heavyweight Champion, which we have considered convenient in order to give the Unified Champions a more flexible time to defend their titles as well as the challengers the chance to fight for the title.

PROPOSED REGULATION

We are still working to set the regulation that shall rule the SUPER WORLD CHAMPIONS, and we have considered it convenient to establish the following:

1. 1. The SUPER CHAMPIONS will be obliged to make the mandatory defense of their titles in a period no longer than 18 months against the boxer recognized as the World Boxing Association Champion of the corresponding division.
   2. In the intermediate period between the mandatory defenses, the UNDISPUTED SUPER CHAMPION will be able to defend his title against any recognized opponent chosen from the official ratings list of the WBA or from the organizations it recognizes and with the approval of those organizations.
   3. The WBA, WBC, IBF and WBO will coordinate whenever necessary their respective ratings, to minimize any incompatibility in them for the Unified Titles, thus easing the optional fights of the UNIFIED SUPER CHAMPIONS.
   4. In those cases of controversies that make difficult the selection of the mandatory contender to fight with the SUPER CHAMPION, the organizations will be able to order mandatory fights (Box-off suggested by Lennox Lewis) to determine the mandatory contender previously agreed-. In those cases when they do not reach an agreement to make the mandatory fight as it is stated in point and previously stated in this provisional regulation, the Purse Bid Procedure will be ordered.

​

[Coverdale]

IBO: They simply lack support. Official recognition is a circlejerk between member who were already recognized. Fans could potentially force an unofficial major body similar to fans' unofficial major ratings in TBRB and Ring, but IBO doesn't have that support either. Rich people have tried in the past and while their failure may be true what is also true is it would be possible with enough promotion, PPV deals and such. Finally, governments, the IBO does not enjoy enough government support to force their position as a major.


On Lennox and the WBA:

https://web.archive.org/web/20080222175427/http://www.wbaonline.com/wchampionships/SuperChmpnsip.htm

WBA SUPER CHAMPIONSHIPS

DEFINITION

The SUPER WORLD CHAMPION CATEGORY OR UNDISPUTED WORLD CHAMPION was created for those World Champions who hold the title of two or more organizations recognized by the WBA, like the World Boxing Council (WBC), the International Boxing Federation (IBF) and the World Boxing Organization (WBO).

The creation of the category of SUPER WORLD CHAMPIONS or UNDISPUTED WORLD CHAMPIONS was born from a suggestion sent to us by Lennox Lewis, World Boxing Association former Heavyweight Champion, which we have considered convenient in order to give the Unified Champions a more flexible time to defend their titles as well as the challengers the chance to fight for the title.

PROPOSED REGULATION

We are still working to set the regulation that shall rule the SUPER WORLD CHAMPIONS, and we have considered it convenient to establish the following:

1. 1. The SUPER CHAMPIONS will be obliged to make the mandatory defense of their titles in a period no longer than 18 months against the boxer recognized as the World Boxing Association Champion of the corresponding division.
   2. In the intermediate period between the mandatory defenses, the UNDISPUTED SUPER CHAMPION will be able to defend his title against any recognized opponent chosen from the official ratings list of the WBA or from the organizations it recognizes and with the approval of those organizations.
   3. The WBA, WBC, IBF and WBO will coordinate whenever necessary their respective ratings, to minimize any incompatibility in them for the Unified Titles, thus easing the optional fights of the UNIFIED SUPER CHAMPIONS.
   4. In those cases of controversies that make difficult the selection of the mandatory contender to fight with the SUPER CHAMPION, the organizations will be able to order mandatory fights (Box-off suggested by Lennox Lewis) to determine the mandatory contender previously agreed-. In those cases when they do not reach an agreement to make the mandatory fight as it is stated in point and previously stated in this provisional regulation, the Purse Bid Procedure will be ordered.

â

Thank you. Key passage highlighted above reinforces what I said. I don't think LL was proposing a two-tier belt policy at all.

[Toffee]

I've never said anything lineal titles in women's boxing. i have have no interest in women's boxing.

And I didn't say anything about boxing not being for the fans, I said the fans have no power to create titles and award them to fighters. That is a ridiculous, idiotic idea. The only power fans have is the power to decide whether to pay to watch a particular fight or not. That's as far as it goes.

If fans won't pay, there is no fight.

Other sports would go ahead regardless. The fixture list would prevail.

Boxing is unique. It's just prizefighting and the belts are just a loose attempt to appear organised. The fans have all the power in boxing.

[Marchegiano]

Thank you. Key passage highlighted above reinforces what I said. I don't think LL was proposing a two-tier belt policy at all.

What?

You searched an entire paragraph that does say Lennox campaigned for a two belt system and then latched on to the handling of mandatories like as if that some how makes it possible to designate a super champion as different from a non-super without having any two belt system.

That's confirmation bias is all that is.


Or, conversely, you can explain the mental gymnastics it takes to designate a champion who isn't the traditional champion and does not follow the systems and process in place for the traditional champion nor does it replace the traditional champion BUT is not a new type of champion or an additional title added to existing titles specifically placed on top the entire hierarchy.




Bit like all the folks who tell me there is no minimal in weight divisions simply because no body goes out of their way to tell jamooks the max of one end is the min of the other. Despite the catchweights, and every modern champion since formalized weight divisions hitting minimals. I had to search for very specific sources saying very specific verbiage.

At some point you have to give up on your ability to interpret and look around. The evidence of the verbiage's point is all around you, been put into action, and still you need specific terms from specific sources to change what is at the end of the day your own misunderstanding of the semantics built on an idea you wanted to believe before you even asked for a source.






Lennox started his campaign in 2002 and it was for the creation of a title above the world title specifically so the world title could be used as a legal belt for legal obligations. That is a two belt system. Nothing you have read changes that. Nothing you've ever seen put into action challenges that. The box-off you're talking about happened, happens as often as the WBA can pull it off. Eventually Pulev, or whoever has Reg, is going to fight Usyk or the super holder, and unify the WBA super belt. Box-off.

It is not the body he campaigned to for six years before they hashed out the deets who then misunderstood those deets. I promise you this, the WBA did not accredit Lennox Lewis for the creation of WBA Super because he thought it would be ill received or because they thought it was a good idea. The entire reason fans know this came from Lennox is because the WBA was following Lennox's orders and trusting Lennox's perspective as a man who was stripped by a judge and were themselves unsure of fan reaction to creating a title they claim is above world champion. Or, a two tear belt system.

But you tell yourself, based on the verbiage of a press release someone else found for you, it's the WBA who misunderstood Lennox's intention.





Not confirmation bias? Not absurd fan protectionism for over glorified fighters? C'mon dude, I seen your posts, you're not dumb. In fact you are clever enough I'm not entirely sure you don't have something to say that would have worked if you asked and concluded to any other member here.



Nah son, there's absolutely no way the WBA misunderstood a project they let Lennox Lewis lead. There's just heaps against that. That said, if the goal is to rationalize Lennox Lewis being the genius who came up with the two belt system you should look to what the bodies are always strongest in, outreach and globalization. This super and two belt system nonsense has more to do with the WBO than any ever speaks to. And the WBO has more to do with the rise of the east than anyone speaks to. There's plenty in that. If you want to grandize Lennox, that's cool, I don't actually hate him it's just been a run of folks claiming he did do something he didn't do and forgiving or acting like he isn't responsible for the things he definitely did do.

I'll give you this for free; USSR breaks up abouts 92 right? Flood of east? Nah doe, more like a trickle. mid 2000s, new body getting total recognition for the first time since the 80s, a new belt gets created after a euro fighter campaigns to an NA body about US law marking the beginning of the two tier belt system, flood of eastern fighters and champions in our ranks. They're all more connected than I have ever seen presented to fans and make Lennox look good.



This "Lennox Lewis did not design the two tier belt system" nonsense is doomed to fail. There was a time when he was proud of it. The most anyone could say is he didn't envision what the WBC would do with the idea or how the WBA would react to that. The existence and acceptance of two tier though, def him bro.