When did the 9-belt era begin?

[Marchegiano]

I want to get brodbombefly in here.

They binned my belts thread!

It was glorious and detailed every single belt ever create with in some level of reason. If there was a scrap of evident it was made I accounted for it. Panama's colored title that turned out to be tin and all!


Because the AI deemed it too heavy. I linked pics to the belts when i could. Too ****ing heavy for a boxing forum. Why a boxing forum's history section should house information on its belts is beyond the AI overlord.






So, this is gonna be more like I do a quick overview and youse ask questions and/or tell me I am wrong kinda deal.



Basically unterbelts are a means for the bodies to adhere to their legal obligations without having to strip a champion.

The major four are the major four because each has history going back to the original regional bodies. No major body that has no history to connect them to the original US, British, or Euro bodies is recognized as a world body. To be very super clear, plenty were formed, none have forced their way in.

Each world body is connected to regional bodies. These regional bodies titles force ratings in the world ratings systems.

All of the four bodies recognize all champions from the four bodies and none rate any with in world ratings systems. Having a WBA title does exclude you from WBC,IBF,WBO ratings.

Sometimes because a man did well on the regional level and the men ahead of him on the world level recently failed to someone who can't be rated ( a champion ) we end up with a world title contender who is really more of a domestic fighter. Fans will opt for a world champion to fight a world level fighter and cite unofficial ratings like Ring who have no regional or forced mechanism that allows athlete to force their way into title contention.

Enter "interim" "regular" "franchise" "super" "gold" "silver" "global" style bull****.

If you have an extra world title and you have a contender who must be given their mando or can sue you can hand them that extra world title while your standing champion defends against whoever it is you're trying to avoid stripping for fighting.

They're legal belts used to adhere to the promises of the bodies without actually adhering to the promises of the bodies.


And the entire reason why they were used sparingly before the mid 2000s is Lennox Lewis didn't email the WBA until 2002. They announced their intentions with the regular in 2002. Prior to the Lewis usage of interim, they used to be for when the champion couldn't fight due to injury or illness. It was Lennox who told the WBA to keep Interim for that, but make Regular for their legal shiz and Super for the true champ.

WBC followed more quickly and everyone claims different verbiage but right now WBC has Agit belted and WBO has Joe belted and ain't no one sick or injured.



I'll go to more depth but im just not sure which direction atm.

[Marchegiano]

It should be said, fans might ***** but the IBF does generally lean mando rather than interim. At any given time they'll have the least interim champions and always have had.

[Coverdale]

They binned my belts thread!

It was glorious and detailed every single belt ever create with in some level of reason. If there was a scrap of evident it was made I accounted for it. Panama's colored title that turned out to be tin and all!


Because the AI deemed it too heavy. I linked pics to the belts when i could. Too ****ing heavy for a boxing forum. Why a boxing forum's history section should house information on its belts is beyond the AI overlord.






So, this is gonna be more like I do a quick overview and youse ask questions and/or tell me I am wrong kinda deal.



Basically unterbelts are a means for the bodies to adhere to their legal obligations without having to strip a champion.

The major four are the major four because each has history going back to the original regional bodies. No major body that has no history to connect them to the original US, British, or Euro bodies is recognized as a world body. To be very super clear, plenty were formed, none have forced their way in.

Each world body is connected to regional bodies. These regional bodies titles force ratings in the world ratings systems.

All of the four bodies recognize all champions from the four bodies and none rate any with in world ratings systems. Having a WBA title does exclude you from WBC,IBF,WBO ratings.

Sometimes because a man did well on the regional level and the men ahead of him on the world level recently failed to someone who can't be rated ( a champion ) we end up with a world title contender who is really more of a domestic fighter. Fans will opt for a world champion to fight a world level fighter and cite unofficial ratings like Ring who have no regional or forced mechanism that allows athlete to force their way into title contention.

Enter "interim" "regular" "franchise" "super" "gold" "silver" "global" style bull****.

If you have an extra world title and you have a contender who must be given their mando or can sue you can hand them that extra world title while your standing champion defends against whoever it is you're trying to avoid stripping for fighting.

They're legal belts used to adhere to the promises of the bodies without actually adhering to the promises of the bodies.


And the entire reason why they were used sparingly before the mid 2000s is Lennox Lewis didn't email the WBA until 2002. They announced their intentions with the regular in 2002. Prior to the Lewis usage of interim, they used to be for when the champion couldn't fight due to injury or illness. It was Lennox who told the WBA to keep Interim for that, but make Regular for their legal shiz and Super for the true champ.

WBC followed more quickly and everyone claims different verbiage but right now WBC has Agit belted and WBO has Joe belted and ain't no one sick or injured.



I'll go to more depth but im just not sure which direction atm.

Thank you for this. I want to ask one question and challenge you on one point:

• Why has the IBO not succeeded in becoming a major belt?
• Is 'super' and 'regular' belts actually want Lennox suggested or just how the WBA decided to interpret him? I gather he was calling for box-offs between bodies to allow for a single mandatory challenger.

[kafkod]

At least tag kafkod to give him the right of reply

Thanks for the mention.

I'm assuming Bill mentioned me in this thread because of an a discussion/argument we had about the the lineage of HW champions and the imaginary lineal title.

Bill believes that this imaginary lineal title is the answer to the confusion caused by having multiple "world titles" in the division. My problem with that idea is that it only works when there is an unbroken line of succession (man-who-beat-the-man) back to the last undisputed champion. In other words, it only works when it isn't needed!

According to Bill, when the line of succession is broken, an imaginary lineal title should be awarded "by consensus" to the winner of a fight between top 2 in the division.

But who gets to pick the top 2 in the division? And who has the authority to order them to fight each other for this imaginary title?

[real raw]

Money! It keeps people engaged and willing to watch/ spend. Look at all sports, there's category proliferation in all sports.

"best wearing blue" best wearing red" best over " best under".

[Coverdale]

Thanks for the mention.

I'm assuming Bill mentioned me in this thread because of an a discussion/argument we had about the the lineage of HW champions and the imaginary lineal title.

Bill believes that this imaginary lineal title is the answer to the confusion caused by having multiple "world titles" in the division. My problem with that idea is that it only works when there is an unbroken line of succession (man-who-beat-the-man) back to the last undisputed champion. In other words, it only works when it isn't needed!

According to Bill, when the line of succession is broken, an imaginary lineal title should be awarded "by consensus" to the winner of a fight between top 2 in the division.

But who gets to pick the top 2 in the division? And who has the authority to order them to fight each other for this imaginary title?

It's a debate that cannot be satisfactorily resolved. The problem with the term 'undisputed' is that it confers upon the sanctioning bodies an authority I don't think they deserve.

You might not like an 'imaginary' title but I don't particularly like arbitrary authorities either.

The 'three belt era' was tolerable, but since the WBOgus was 'recognised', along with all the secondary belts, I think looking to these nepotistic private businesses for divisional clarity has become untenable.

(FYI billeau2)

[billeau2]

Thanks for the mention.

I'm assuming Bill mentioned me in this thread because of an a discussion/argument we had about the the lineage of HW champions and the imaginary lineal title.

Bill believes that this imaginary lineal title is the answer to the confusion caused by having multiple "world titles" in the division. My problem with that idea is that it only works when there is an unbroken line of succession (man-who-beat-the-man) back to the last undisputed champion. In other words, it only works when it isn't needed!

According to Bill, when the line of succession is broken, an imaginary lineal title should be awarded "by consensus" to the winner of a fight between top 2 in the division.

But who gets to pick the top 2 in the division? And who has the authority to order them to fight each other for this imaginary title?

No, "Bill believes that a few regulating bodies, promoters and all else have their place... Including lineal titles in the Heavyweight division." The Lineal is one way of accepting a champion and depends upon the power of the fans to exersize their power... It is hardly imaginery.

I am beginning to feel like the fact that there are too many self promoting authorities, bad promoters is being blamed on the lineal wanting its place at the table lol. It is not the fans fault that there are too many regulating bodies AND... The fact that there are too many such organizations does not mean that a good one should not exist.

You and Marg really got this twisted... Maybe it is my fault the way I expressed it? At any rate. THIS is my point. Not that no other such influences, power bases should exist.

[billeau2]

They binned my belts thread!

It was glorious and detailed every single belt ever create with in some level of reason. If there was a scrap of evident it was made I accounted for it. Panama's colored title that turned out to be tin and all!


Because the AI deemed it too heavy. I linked pics to the belts when i could. Too ****ing heavy for a boxing forum. Why a boxing forum's history section should house information on its belts is beyond the AI overlord.






So, this is gonna be more like I do a quick overview and youse ask questions and/or tell me I am wrong kinda deal.



Basically unterbelts are a means for the bodies to adhere to their legal obligations without having to strip a champion.

The major four are the major four because each has history going back to the original regional bodies. No major body that has no history to connect them to the original US, British, or Euro bodies is recognized as a world body. To be very super clear, plenty were formed, none have forced their way in.

Each world body is connected to regional bodies. These regional bodies titles force ratings in the world ratings systems.

All of the four bodies recognize all champions from the four bodies and none rate any with in world ratings systems. Having a WBA title does exclude you from WBC,IBF,WBO ratings.

Sometimes because a man did well on the regional level and the men ahead of him on the world level recently failed to someone who can't be rated ( a champion ) we end up with a world title contender who is really more of a domestic fighter. Fans will opt for a world champion to fight a world level fighter and cite unofficial ratings like Ring who have no regional or forced mechanism that allows athlete to force their way into title contention.

Enter "interim" "regular" "franchise" "super" "gold" "silver" "global" style bull****.

If you have an extra world title and you have a contender who must be given their mando or can sue you can hand them that extra world title while your standing champion defends against whoever it is you're trying to avoid stripping for fighting.

They're legal belts used to adhere to the promises of the bodies without actually adhering to the promises of the bodies.


And the entire reason why they were used sparingly before the mid 2000s is Lennox Lewis didn't email the WBA until 2002. They announced their intentions with the regular in 2002. Prior to the Lewis usage of interim, they used to be for when the champion couldn't fight due to injury or illness. It was Lennox who told the WBA to keep Interim for that, but make Regular for their legal shiz and Super for the true champ.

WBC followed more quickly and everyone claims different verbiage but right now WBC has Agit belted and WBO has Joe belted and ain't no one sick or injured.



I'll go to more depth but im just not sure which direction atm.

This is a great explanation. It shows knowledge and understanding of the rational for the Plethora of these groups. Look at the bolded, this is imo ultimately the problem. Undisputed should mean beating the best... Not beating other belt owners... The proof of this is whom is often designated as "champions." The one way I would concede to such a system would be if there was an official process of making all "champions fight" for the undisputed... But that would alas, bring us right back to the lineal No? And these groups benefit from keeping their champion. It is a problem and should be at the very least pressured by fans interested in an undisputed champion.

Whether used sparingly, or not, when there is a great fighter who is better than the rest, by virtue of beating the best, they should be undisputed. It would be like saying the World Series is not legit in baseball because the Cuban and Japanese champion teams need a voice. The fact is the Major leagues are the best baseball leagues period.

[real raw]

This is a great explanation. It shows knowledge and understanding of the rational for the Plethora of these groups. Look at the bolded, this is imo ultimately the problem. Undisputed should mean beating the best... Not beating other belt owners... The proof of this is whom is often designated as "champions." The one way I would concede to such a system would be if there was an official process of making all "champions fight" for the undisputed... But that would alas, bring us right back to the lineal No? And these groups benefit from keeping their champion. It is a problem and should be at the very least pressured by fans interested in an undisputed champion.

Whether used sparingly, or not, when there is a great fighter who is better than the rest, by virtue of beating the best, they should be undisputed. It would be like saying the World Series is not legit in baseball because the Cuban and Japanese champion teams need a voice. The fact is the Major leagues are the best baseball leagues period.

maybe, maybe not. they should play japan and cuba to prove it.

[billeau2]

maybe, maybe not. they should play japan and cuba to prove it.

Baseball people generally agree that the talent in Major league baseball is such that there is very little chance of beating the world series champs. There are reasons for this and unless things changed dramatically I do not see much reason for such a playoff. Not the least if which would be: where do outstanding players from these countries go when given a chance? The major leagues. Baseball can be deceptive when evaluating talent. The best world series I ever watched was between the Cincinnati REds and the Boston REd Sox. Two absolute incredible teams, the Big REd Machine was a little bit better... And Lo and behold the series was fantastic but it showed that the Reds were just a little bit better. It seemed like a close series but if you really watched with expert eyes, the Reds were always just a little bit better. It wasn't really close even though it came down to a fairly close score and I believe, a seventh game (memory may be faulty lol).