Casual Fans overlooking Fury's mastery of his Era?

[Froch_uppercut]

Fury could've done a lot better, tending the flock and collecting hardware. That long medical sabbatical didn't help in the early phase of his reign, but it certainly may have saved his life, so the good folks will cut him slack there. Even now, however, he's big on issuing challenges and making other provocative statements designed to rile people up, and the fans have grown pretty tired of the show, and just want him to fight, and preferably, fight the best!

But looking back carefully at the Tyson Fury era of Heavyweight history, we can see that he hasn't done as badly as all that, with 10 fights against the 50 best of the era (based on a pretty good list of the 50 best).

What are your thoughts about how he's been doing?


This Generation 2015-2025 - Heavyweights

2013 - 2023

1. Tyson Fury
2. Deontay Wilder
2. Deontay Wilder
2. Deontay Wilder
3. Oleksandr Usyk
4. Anthony Joshua
5. Wladimir Klitschko
6. Zhilei Zhang
7. Andy Ruiz Jr
8. Luis Ortiz
9. Alexander Povetkin
10.Dillian Whyte
11.Joe Joyce
12.Daniel Dubois
13.Filip Hrgovic
14.Jarrell Miller
15.Joseph Parker
16.Kubrat Pulev
17.Otto Wallin
18.Frank Sanchez
19.Robert Helenius
20.Derek Chisora
20.Derek Chisora
20.Derek Chisora
21. Arslanbek Makhmudov
22.Charles Martin
23.Carlos Takam
24.Martin Bakole
25.Jared Anderson
26.Tomasz Adamek
27.Chris Arreola
28.Tony Thompson
29.Bermane Stiverne
30.Michael Hunter
31.Tony Yoka
32.Johann Duhaupas
33.Bakhodir Jalolov
34.Efe Ajagba
35.Daniel Dubois
36.David Haye
37.Bryant Jennings
38.Agit Kabayel
39.Gerald Washington
40.Murat Gassiev
41.Jermaine Franklin
42.Shannon Briggs
43.Dominic Breazeale
44.Adam Kownacki
45.Ruslan Chagaev
46.Fabio Wardley
47.Christian Hammer
48.Alexander Dimetrienko
49.Aleksandr Ustinov
50.Hugie Fury


The bullpen:

Simon Kean , Zhan Kossobutskiy, Ivan Dychko, Mariuz Wach, Richard Torrez Jr., Stephen Shaw, Mairis Briedis, Ali Erin Demirezen, Oscar Rivas, Vladyslav Sirenko, David Price, Artur Szpilka, Eric Molina, Lucas Browne, Jerry Forrest, Francisco Pianeta, Lenier Pero, Jonathan Rice, Tom Schwarz, Travis Kaufman, Alex Leapai, Vyacheslav Glazkov, Demsey McKean, Kevin Lerena, Jerry Forrest, Rostislav Plechko, Izuagbe Ugonoh, Amir Mansour, Justice Huni, David Allen, Erkan Teper, Eddie Chambers, Sergey Kuzmin, Malik Scott, Edmund Gerber, Trevor Bryan, Nathan Gorman, Evgeny Romanov, Johnathan Guidry, Razvan Cojanu, Agron Smakici, Viktor Vykhryst, Jose Larduet, Bogdan Dinu, Andrey Fedosov, Attila Levin, David Adeleye, Michael Wallisch, Oleksandr Zakhozhyi, Frazier Clarke, Kingpin Johnson, Joe Cusumano, Mahoud "Manuel" Charr, Michael Polite Coffie, Audley Harrison, Kem Ljungquist, Dillon Carman, Junior Fa, Albert Sosnowski, Fres Oquendo, Mike Balogun, Andrii Rudenko, Marcin Siwy, Deontae Pettigrew, Derric Rossy, Mike Perez, Tre Lippe, Sam ***ton, Odlanier Solis, Joey Dawejko, Solomon Haumono, Przemyslaw Saleta, Kertson Manswell, Joe Hanks, Gurgen Hovhannisyan, Joey Abell, Hemi Ahio, Alexis Santos, Ebenezer Tetteh, Tor Hamer, Agron Smakici, Raphael Akpejiori, Joseph Goodall, Chazz Witherspoon, Darmani Rock, Joshua Tufte, Kelvin Price, Apti Davtaev, Miljan Rovcanin, George Arias, Seth Mitchell, Gary Cornish, Lenroy Thomas, Cassius Chaney, Bronco Billy Wright, James McKenzie Morrison, Kash Ali, Fred Kassi, Peter Kadiru, Adrian Granat, Sonny Conto, Franz Rill, Daniel Martz, Leif Larsen

Bulls**t. The guy hasn't done very much at all.
6 of those ten are against two fighters, and top 50 lmao that's hardly a proud accomplishment.
Wilder, who is vastly overrated and Chisora who is basically a gatekeeper and well past it in two of the three.
Wlad was 40 and it's a stinker of a non-fight. Take that away and you're left with the lkes of Sefer Seferi and Tom Schwartz. Wallin isn't anything special.
Then throw in the fact that Fury basically lost to McDermmott and Ngannou and got gifted decisions, dropped by loads of nobodies and bludgeoned by Otto no-name Wallin.
C'mon man, get real. It is casuals who are still brown nosing this guy and his ducking of AJ and Zhang and all the other challenges, and it is actual boxing people, Froch, Groves, Frampton and proper puundits, True Geordie, Porky etc - who are calling him out.
Your title is wrong. These are not casuals. The casuals are supporting the big ol' drug cheating ducker, the boxing insiders are calling him out.

[BodyBagz]

What words did you think you were responding to?

The bold ones at least ?
Maybe my reply isn't clear......

[Willow The Wisp]

I just grabbed some random quotes to get y'all's attention. not directly responding to what's in the quotes.




I am curious what makes any posted lineage more empirical than any other.





The title lineage is empirical and longstanding.The principles upon which the title was built and maintained have never been in dispute .-Willow

This is a clear example of a logical fallacy known as the "category error." You are talking about an abstract idea, based upon subjective interpretation of historical facts, as if that abstract idea was itself a historical fact. - Kafkod


Are y'all very sure?

For Willow I would like to know what makes any list empirical.

From Kaf I'd like to know what makes a list of succession subjective.

I am not sure either of you questioned your own stances before digging in. That said, one of youse has to be right or at least more righter than the other.

Yes, very sure March. Just reminding peripheral knowledge fans of the commonly accepted presence of the title lineage. No reason to complicate something long accepted, frequently published. The man who beats the man, with just 3 occasions where that man retired and did not return, and those remaining in action fought it out to reestablish universal recognition. No big deal. Nothing to debate.

[kafkod]

Foreman had the WBU and IBA belts bestowed upon him so it's interesting the announcers chose to ignore those. It was obviously a bid by minor sanctioning bodies to gain credibility which didn't work.

Boxing's institutions for a long time were prepared to allow the Big Three the opportunity to behave as true custodians of the sport. As late as 2001 (and possibly beyond) it was within the Ring's championship policy that unifying the three belts would be sufficient to be recognised as Ring champion. They ignored the WBO which helped keep them a minor sanctioning body (which I was in favour of).

HBO were still naming the sanctioning bodies until well into the 2000s before an editorial decision was made to only refer to them obliquely. The sanctioning bodies have repeatedly squandered opportunities to behave appropriately and I hope this leads to their eventual downfall.

Looking at Foreman's BoxRec page ... after winning the WBA and IBF titles from Moorer, he was stripped by the WBA for refusing to fight a mandatory then picked up the vacant WBU title while defending the IBF against Axel Schulz. He was then stripped by the IBF for refusing to give Schulz a rematch and went on to pick up the vacant IBA while defending the WBU against Crawford Grimsley.

He then defended the WBU against Lou Savarese before losing to Shannon Briggs. Big George didn't defend the WBU title vs Briggs. Maybe because Shannon wasn't interested in fighting for it?

You can easily understand why the WBU and IBA wanted Foreman to fight for their titles, but what was in it for George?

Maybe he simply didn't have the audacity to do a Tyson Fury, and claim lineal championship status without holding any titles?

[kafkod]

Foreman was something along the lines of 'defending the status he has never lost in the ring'. I don't think they referred to 'Lineal'.

Briggs was just a challenger

Status is the word I should and would have used in some of my earlier comments, if it had occurred to me, so thanks for the nudge.

Here's an analogy ... in the UK we have aristocratic titles, Duke, Earl, Viscount, etc. People holding those titles are known as "peers of the realm". So "peer of the realm" is not itself a title, it is a term used to describe the status of someone who holds a title.

In the same way, "lineal champion" is not itself a title. It is a term used when there is more than one title holder to describe the status of the guy who can trace his title reign back to the last universally recognised champ via "man who beat the man".

So far as I'm aware, the first belt holder to start talking about a lineal title as if it was a separate entity from his alphabet title was Adonis Stevenson, who was marketed as "the WBC and lineal LHW champion"

Tyson Fury took that sleight of hand a step further, by claiming to still hold the lineal HW title after coming back from a 2 year retirement without any title belts at all.

[Willow The Wisp]

Bulls**t. The guy hasn't done very much at all.
6 of those ten are against two fighters, and top 50 lmao that's hardly a proud accomplishment.
Wilder, who is vastly overrated and Chisora who is basically a gatekeeper and well past it in two of the three.
Wlad was 40 and it's a stinker of a non-fight. Take that away and you're left with the lkes of Sefer Seferi and Tom Schwartz. Wallin isn't anything special.
Then throw in the fact that Fury basically lost to McDermmott and Ngannou and got gifted decisions, dropped by loads of nobodies and bludgeoned by Otto no-name Wallin.
C'mon man, get real. It is casuals who are still brown nosing this guy and his ducking of AJ and Zhang and all the other challenges, and it is actual boxing people, Froch, Groves, Frampton and proper puundits, True Geordie, Porky etc - who are calling him out.
Your title is wrong. These are not casuals. The casuals are supporting the big ol' drug cheating ducker, the boxing insiders are calling him out.

I get the Hate, the Envy; or whatever it is.
All sporting stars get some. But McDemott was a tough learning fight, avenged; and Ngannou was a non-title tiff where the judges favored Fury.
I agree that his body of work is slim compared to stal***** like Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Lewis and Klitschko; but so far; he's been the undefeated world heavyweight Chanp.

Maybe Oleksandr Usyk can bring you the peace you seek. You're not alone.

[Marchegiano]

I didn't say a list of succession was subjective. (Though some of the names on that list will have been placed there for reasons which I would say are subjective because they involve judgement calls by one or more people. Eg, number 1 vs number 2 ranked contenders fighting for a title. Rankings are based on opinions about the merits of ranked fighters, and opinions are subjective.)

I did say that the concept of the lineal title itself is subjective. Because it is a concept and nothing more. Best way to illustrate what I mean by that is to contrast the lineal title with, eg, the WBA title. Yes, the WBA title is also a concept, but it is a concept based on objective, empirically provable facts: There is an organisation called the WBA which has the legal right to sanction boxing matches for the WBA title. Nobody but the WBA has that right and nobody can claim to be a WBA champion unless they win a WBA title in a fight sanctioned by the WBA and defend in accordance with WBA rules.

The lineal title has no such empirical basis. Like I said, it is a concept, and nothing more.

Oh my bad, I just misunderstood. The line about the principles of the title going unchecked or some such threw me. Not your line, Willow's. I took the wrong context going into your response. I were dumb.

[Willow The Wisp]

Looking at Foreman's BoxRec page ... after winning the WBA and IBF titles from Moorer, he was stripped by the WBA for refusing to fight a mandatory then picked up the vacant WBU title while defending the IBF against Axel Schulz. He was then stripped by the IBF for refusing to give Schulz a rematch and went on to pick up the vacant IBA while defending the WBU against Crawford Grimsley.

He then defended the WBU against Lou Savarese before losing to Shannon Briggs. Big George didn't defend the WBU title vs Briggs. Maybe because Shannon wasn't interested in fighting for it?

You can easily understand why the WBU and IBA wanted Foreman to fight for their titles, but what was in it for George?

Maybe he simply didn't have the audacity to do a Tyson Fury, and claim lineal championship status without holding any titles?

Good post. Needless to say, You are correct regarding Foreman securing the acknowledged championship from Moorer, who'd won it from Holyfield, who'd won it from Bowe, who'd won it from Holyfield, who'd won it from Douglas, who'd won it from Tyson, who'd won it from Michael Spinks, who'd won it from Holmes, who'd won it from Ali, who'd won it from Leon Spinks, who'd won it from Ali, who'd won it from Foreman, who'd won it from Frazier, who'd won it from Ali, who'd won it From Liston, who'd won it from Patterson, etc.

You also make a great case for distinguishing the lineal/real world championship, supported by a sanctioning body belt or not, from the myriad sanctioning body offerings designed to be marketed in exchange for sanctioning fees outside of the actual lineal title, as a means of marketing a fight.

Fans might be apt to be unaware of the distinction, but history and historians, are not.

And neither are you. You know better. You know you do, and semantics can't change the sacred tradition of passing this title to the man who beat the man.

You just like to argue. Which is OK.

[Willow The Wisp]

I have not worked on this to any real degree since 2018 and not at all since 2021. Also you're going to see I had began identifying titles but still:

Archaic Era

Onomastos of Smyrna - 688, 684, 680, & 676 BC

Daippos of Kroton - 672 BC

Komaios of Megara - 652 BC

Pythagoras of Samos - 588 BC

Tissandros of Sicilian Naxos - 572, 568, 564, & 560 BC

Praxidamas of Aigina - 544 BC

Glaukos of Karystos - 520 BC

Philon of Korkyra 500 & 496 BC

Kleomedes of Astypalaia - 492 BC

Diognetos of Crete - 488 BC

Euthymos of Lokroi - 484 BC

Theagenes of Thasos - 480 BC

Classical Era

Euthymos of Lokroi - 476 & 472 BC

Menalkes of Opous - 468 BC

Diagoras of Rhodes - 464 BC

Akousilaos of Rhodes - 448 BC

Alkainetos of Lepreon - 444 BC

Kleomachos of Maiandros - 424 BC

Eukles of Rhodes - 404 BC

Demarchos of Parrhasia - 400 BC

Phormion of Halikarnassos - 392 BC

Eupalos of Thessaly - 388 BC

Damoxenidas of Mainalos - 384 BC

Illegible of Samos - 380 BC

Labax of Lepreon - 376 BC

Aristion of Epidauros - 368 BC

Philammon of Athens - 360 BC

Asamon of Elis - 340 BC

Mys or Taras - 336 BC

Satyros of Elis - 332 & 328 BC

Hellenistic Era

Archippos of Mytilene - 300 BC

Kallippos of Rhodes - 296 BC

Cleoxenus of Alexandria - 240 BC

Kleitomachos of Thebes - 212 BC

Roman Era

Epitherses of Erythrai - 184 & 180 BC

D [three illegible letters] gonos of Rhodes - 160 & 156 BC

Xenothemis of Miletos - 144 BC

Agesarchos of Tritia - 120 BC

Atyanas of Adramyttion - 72 BC

Thaliarchos of Elis - 32 BC

Nikophon of Miletos - 8 BC

Demokrates of Maiandros - 25, 29, & 33 AD

Melankomas of Caria - 49 AD

Herakleides of Alexandria - 93 AD

Marcus Tullius of Apameia - 141 & 145 AD

Photion of Ephesos - 173, 197, & 201 AD

Horus of Egypt - 364 AD

Varazdat of Armenia - 385 AD

Banned by Theodosius I in 393 AD

English Era

The Unnamed Dark Age Butcher - 1681

James 'The First' Figg - 1719

Ned 'The Pipemaker' Sutton - 1724

James 'The First' Figg - 1725

Robert 'The Pugilist' Whittaker - 1725

Nathaniel Peartree - 1726

John Gritton - 1727

Robert 'The Pugilist' Whittaker - 1728

Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1730

Bill Gretting - 1730

Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1730

Bill Gretting - 1732

Tom 'The Claimant' Pipes - 1733

George 'The Barber' Taylor - 1734

Jack 'The Father of Boxing' Broughton - 1736

Jack 'The Norfolk Butcher' Slack - 1750

William 'The Nailer' Stevens - 1760

George 'The Collier' Meggs - 1761

George 'The Baker' Millsom - 1762

Tom 'The Pavior' Juchau - 1765

William 'The Dyer' Darts - 1766

Tom 'The Waterman' Lyons - 1769

William 'The Dyer' Darts - 1769

Peter 'The Irish' Corcoran - 1771

Harry 'The West Countryman' Sellers - 1776

Duggan 'Jack' Fearns - 1779

Tom Johnson a.k.a Thomas Jackling - 1787

Benjamin 'Big Ben' Brain - 1791

Daniel 'The ***' Mendoza - 1794

John 'Gentleman' Jackson - 1795

Thomas 'The Fighting Oilman' Owen - 1796

Jack 'Barty' Bartholomew - 1797

Jem 'The Napoleon of the Ring' Belcher - 1800

Henry "Hen the Game Chicken" Pearce - 1805

John 'The Potter' Gully - 1807

Tom 'The Black Diamond' Cribb - 1808

Tom 'The ******ia Slave' Molineaux - 1810

Tom 'The Light Tapper' Spring - 1823

Tom Cannon 'The Great Gun of Windsor' - 1824

Jem 'The Black Diamond' Ward - 1825

Peter 'Young Rump Steak' Crawley - 1827

Jem 'The Black Diamond' Ward - 1827

James 'The Deaf'un' Burke - 1833

Samuel O'Rourke - 1833

William 'Bendigo' Thompson - 1839

Ben 'The Torkard Giant' Caunt - 1840

Nick Ward - 1841

Ben 'The Torkard Giant' Caunt - 1841

Tom 'The Butcherman' Hyer - 1841

Daniel Knox - 1842

William 'Bendigo' Thompson - 1845

William 'The Tipton Slasher' Perry - 1850

Harry 'The Unknown' Broome - 1851

John 'Old Smoke' Morrissey - 1853

Tom 'The Redditch Needlepointer' Paddock - 1856

Tom 'The Brighton Boy' Sayers - 1858

John 'The Benica Boy' Carmel Heenan - 1860

Tom Curran - 1860

Sam 'The Staleybridge Infant' Hurst - 1860

Jem 'The Gypsy' Mace - 1861

Tom 'The Fighting Sailor' King - 1862

Joe Coburn - 1863

Joe Wormald - 1865

Jim Dunne - 1863

Jimmy Elliott - 1865

Jem 'The Gypsy' Mace - 1866

Mike 'The Deck Hand' McCoole - 1866

Tom Allen - 1869

Jem 'The Gypsy' Mace - 1870

Tom Allen - 1873

Charlie 'The Black Thunderbolt' Smith - 1876 Colored

Joe Goss - 1876

'Scalping' Morris Grant - 1878 Colored

Paddy Ryan - 1880

Charles 'Professor' Hadley - 1881 Colored

John 'The Boston Strong Boy' L. Sullivan - 1882 Traditional Lineal

George 'Old Chocolate' Godfrey - 1883 Colored

American Era

'The Great' John L. Sullivan - 1885

Peter 'The Great' Jackson - 1888 Colored

'Gentleman Jim' James J. Corbett - 1892

Peter Maher - 1895 Alternative Lineal

Bob 'The King of the Battle Royal' Armstrong - 1896 Colored

'Ruby' Robert James Fitzsimmons - 1897

Frank 'The Crafty Texan' Childs - 1898

George Byers - 1898

Klon***e - 1899

James 'The Boilermaker' J. Jeffries - 1899

Frank 'The Crafty Texan' Childs - 1899

Frank 'The Crafty Texan' Childs - 1901

Ed 'The Colorado Giant' Martin - 1902

Jack 'The Unforgivable Blackness' Johnson - 1903

Marvin 'The Louisville Plumber' Hart - 1905

Jack Palmer - 1905 NSC

Noah Brusso a.k.a. Tommy 'The Little Giant of Hanover' Burns - 1906

Gunner Moir - 1906 NSC

Jack 'The Unforgivable Blackness' Johnson - 1908

Sam McVea - 1909

Iron Hague - 1909 NSC

Sam Langford - 1909 NSC

Jeremiah "Joe" Jeannette - 1909

Samuel 'Boston Bonecrusher' Langford - 1910

Al Palzer - 1911

Billy Wells - 1911 NSC

Sam McVea - 1911

Sam 'Boston Tar Baby' Langford - 1912

Luther McCarty - 1913 White

Arthur Pelkey - 1913 White

Edward 'Gunboat' Smith - 1914 White

Harry 'The Black Panther' Wills - 1914 Colored

Georges 'The Orchid Man' Carpentier - 1914 White

Sam 'Boston Terror' Langford - 1914 Colored

Jess 'Pottawatomie Giant' Willard - 1915 Traditional Lineal

Harry 'The Black Panther' Wills - 1916 Colored

Sam 'Greatest Fighter Nobody Knows' Langford - 1916

'Big' Bill Tate - 1917

Sam 'Boston' Langford - 1917

Harry 'The Black Panther' Wills - 1918

Jack 'The Manassa Mauler' Dempsey - 1919

Frank Goddard - 1919 NSC

Joe Beckett - 1921 NSC

James Joseph Tunney a.k.a Gene 'The Fighting Marine' Tunney - 1926

Feab Smith Williams a.k.a. George 'The Leiperville Shadow' Godfrey - 1926

(Lawrence Samuel) 'Loopin'' Larry Gains - 1928

Maximillian Adolph Otto Siegfried Schmeling 'Black Uhlan of the Rhine' - 1930

Maximillian Adolph Otto Siegfried Schmeling 'Black Uhlan of the Rhine' - 1931

Feab Smith Williams a.k.a. George 'The Leiperville Shadow' Godfrey - 1931

Joseph Paul Zukauskas a.k.a Jack 'Sharkboy' Sharkey - 1932

Primo Carnera - 1933

'Bearcat' Obie Dia Walker - 1933

Maximilian Adelbert Baer - 1934

James J. (Walter) 'Pride of the Irish' Braddock - 1935

Feab Smith Williams a.k.a. George 'The Leiperville Shadow' Godfrey - 1935

'Loopin' Larry Gains - 1935

Joseph 'The Brown Bomber' Louis Barrow - 1937

Ezzard Mack Charles 'Cincinnati Cobra' - 1949

Lee 'The Battling Bartender' Savold (Hulver) - 1950

Ezzard Mack Charles 'Cincinnati Cobra' - 1950

Ezzard Mack Charles 'Cincinnati Cobra' - 1951

Arnold Raymond Cream a.k.a Jersey Joe Walcott - 1951

Rocco Francis Marchegiano a.k.a Rocky 'The Brockton Blockbuster' Marciano - 1952

Floyd 'The Gentleman of Boxing' Patterson - 1956

Ingemar 'The Hammer of Tho' Johansson - 1959

Floyd 'The Gentleman of Boxing' Patterson - 1960

Charles L. 'Sonny' 'The Big Bear' Liston - 1962

Cassius 'The Louisville Lip' Clay - 1964

Muhammad 'The Greatest' Ali - 1964

Ernie Terrell - 1965

Muhammad 'The Greatest' Ali - 1967

Smokin' Joe (William) Frazier - 1968

Jimmy (Albert) Ellis - 1968

Smokin' Joe (William) Frazier - 1970

'Big' George (Edward) Foreman - 1973

Muhammad 'The Greatest' Ali - 1974

'Neon' Leon Spinks - 1978

'Neon' Leon Spinks - 1978

Ken 'The Jaw Breaker'(Howard) Norton - 1978

Larry 'The Easton Assassin' Holmes - 1978

Muhammad 'The Greatest' Ali - 1978

'Big' John Tate - 1979

Mike 'Hercules'(Dwayne) Weaver - 1980

Michael (Marshall) 'Dynamite' Dokes (Doakes) - 1982

Gerhardus 'Gerrie' 'The Bionic Hand' Christian Coetzee - 1983

Larry 'The Easton Assassin' Holmes - 1983

'Terrible' Tim Witherspoon - 1984

'Pink' Pinklon Thomas - 1984

Greg Page - 1984

Tony 'TNT' Tubbs - 1985

Michael 'Jinx' Spinks - 1985

Trevor Berbick - 1985

'Terrible' Tim Witherspoon - 1986

'Iron' Mike Tyson - 1986

James 'Bonecrusher' Smith - 1986

'Iron' Mike Tyson - 1987

Tony 'TNT' Tucker - 1987

Mike Tyson - 1987

Francesco Damiani - 1989

James 'Buster' Douglas - 1990

Evander 'The Real Dea' Holyfield - 1990

Ray 'Merciless' Mercer - 1991

Michael 'Double M' Moorer - 1992

Rid**** 'Big Daddy' Bowe - 1992

Rid**** 'Big Daddy' Bowe - 1992

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 1992

Tommy 'The Duke' Morrison - 1993

Michael Bentt - 1993

Evander 'The Real Deal' Holyfield - 1993

Herbert Okechukwu Maduagwu a.k.a. Herbie 'The Dancing Destroyer' Hide - 1994

Michael 'Double M' Moorer - 1994

Oliver 'The Atomic Bull' McCall - 1994

'Big' George Foreman - 1994

'Big' George Foreman - 1995

Rid**** 'Big Daddy' Bowe - 1995

Bruce 'The Atlantic City Express' Seldon - 1995

Frank Bruno - 1995

'Iron' Mike Tyson - 1996

Michael 'Double M' Moorer - 1996

Henry Adetokunboh Akinwande - 1996

'Iron' Mike Tyson - 1996

'Iron' Mike Tyson- 1996

Evander 'The Real Deal' Holyfield - 1996

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 1997

Herbert Okechukwu Maduagwu a.k.a. Herbie 'The Dancing Destroyer' Hide - 1997

Evander 'The Real Deal' Holyfield - 1997

Vitali 'Dr. Ironfist' Klitschko - 2000

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 1999

Chris 'Rapid Fire' Byrd - 2000

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 2000

Evander 'The Real Deal' Holyfield - 2000

Wladimir 'Dr. Steelhammer' Klitschko - 2000

John 'The Quietman' Ruiz - 2001

Hasim 'The Rock' Rahman - 2001

Lennox 'The Lion' Lewis - 2001

Lennox 'The Lion'Lewis - 2002

Chris 'Rapid Fire' Byrd - 2002

Roy 'Captain Hook' Jones, Jr. - 2003

Corrie 'The Sniper' Sanders - 2003

John 'The Quietman' Ruiz - 2004

Lamon 'Relentless' Brewster - 2004

Vitali 'Dr.Ironfist' Klitschko - 2004

Hasim 'The Rock' Rahman - 2005

Nikolai 'Beast from the East' Valuev - 2005

Siarhei 'The White Wolf' Liakhovich - 2006

Wladimir 'Dr.Steelhammer' Klitschko - 2006

Oleg 'The Big O' Maskaev - 2006

Shannon 'The Cannon' Briggs - 2006

Ruslan 'The White Tyson' Chagaev - 2007

Sultan(-Ahmed Magomedsalihovich) Ibragimov - 2007

Wladimir 'Dr.Steelhammer' Klitschko - 2008

Samuel Okon Peter - 2008

Nikolai 'Beast from the East' Valuev - 2008

Vitali 'Dr.Ironfist' Klitschko - 2008

David 'The Hayemaker' Haye - 2009

Wladimir 'Dr.Steelhammer' Klitschko - 2011

Alexander 'Sasha' Povetkin - 2011

Bermane 'B.Ware' Stiverne - 2014

Ruslan 'White Tyson' Chagaev - 2014

Deontay 'The Bronze Bomber' Wilder - 2015

Tyson 'The Gypsy King' Fury - 2015

'Prince' Charles Martin - 2016

Lucas 'Big Daddy' Browne - 2016

Anthony 'AJ' Oluwafemi Olaseni Joshua - 2016

Ruslan 'White Tyson' Chagaev - 2016

Joseph (Dennis) Parker - 2016

Anthony 'AJ' Oluwafemi Olaseni Joshua - 2017

(Mahmoud Omeirat) Manuel 'Diamond Boy' Charr - 2017

Anthony 'AJ' Oluwafemi Olaseni Joshua - 2018

(Andrés Ponce) Andy "Destroyer" Ruiz Jr. - 2019

Anthony 'AJ' Oluwafemi Olaseni Joshua - 2019

Tyson 'The Gypsy King' Fury - 2020

Trevor "The Dream" Cosmo Bryan Jr. - 2021

Oleksandr "The Cat" (Oleksandrovych) Usyk - 2021





Empirical? Assuming no mistakes were made it is empirical? There is nothing subjective about this list?

On the other side of things, if you put a name and date into google you're going to get champion status in your search results and so how is it subjective?

Is it possible for a fact to be as ambivalent as emotions? One can feel joy and melancholy at once, perhaps a state of a thing can be both empirical and subjective?


I didn't mean for this list to be a lineal only list but lineal is in it of course. Is the lineal bit more empirical than the body titles or newspaper titles?

Great job Marchegiano!!!
This was good work by Marchegiano I (with my help).
It is a list of title claimants, as opposed to a list of only lineal champions. Lacking WWII interim champion Jimmy Bivens, WAA champion Monte Masters, World Boxing Federation (WBF) champion Joe Bugner, and a number of others, it remains a WIP. What it illustrates is the importance of distinguishing commonly recognized lineal Champions from title claimants (who were many), and the need to recognize the man who beat the man, as all serious historians have done.
To argue that water isn't wet is not an argument that is strengthened by either eloquence or willful ignorance.

To leave the mark of history in the hands of Mauricio Sulaimán, Gilberto Mendoza Jr., or Daryl Peoples, so that they might profit, and to propagate this at the expense of history?

Shameful!

[kafkod]

Good post. Needless to say, You are correct regarding Foreman securing the acknowledged championship from Moorer, who'd won it from Holyfield, who'd won it from Bowe, who'd won it from Holyfield, who'd won it from Douglas, who'd won it from Tyson, who'd won it from Michael Spinks, who'd won it from Holmes, who'd won it from Ali, who'd won it from Leon Spinks, who'd won it from Ali, who'd won it from Foreman, who'd won it from Frazier, who'd won it from Ali, who'd won it From Liston, who'd won it from Patterson, etc.

You also make a great case for distinguishing the lineal/real world championship, supported by a sanctioning body belt or not, from the myriad sanctioning body offerings designed to be marketed in exchange for sanctioning fees outside of the actual lineal title, as a means of marketing a fight.

Fans might be apt to be unaware of the distinction, but history and historians, are not.

And neither are you. You know better. You know you do, and semantics can't change the sacred tradition of passing this title to the man who beat the man.

You just like to argue. Which is OK.

If you don't understand the difference between the status of a title holder and an actual title - or maybe just don't want to admit that there is a difference - then look at it this way: You keep saying that history validates Fury's lineal championship claims. In fact, there has never been a fighter in the history of boxing who was accepted as a true lineal champion - by anybody other than his own team and fanboys - without also being a title belt holder and a licensed boxer.

History proves that you are wrong. Fury stopped being the lineal HW champ when he was stripped of the Ring title in 2018, after relinquishing all his other belts and handing in his boxing licence in 2016.

Stop being so stubborn and accept reality.