Why there is only One Heavyweight Champion

[kafkod]

No one disputes?

Obviously too young to know that Wladimir was never a true lineal champion.

The whole thing is a marketing ploy for those who don't know or easily forget.

Truth!

[Toffee]

No one disputes?

Obviously too young to know that Wladimir was never a true lineal champion.

The whole thing is a marketing ploy for those who don't know or easily forget.

I do happen to think Wlad was lineal champion.

That's the thing about lineal... it's full of debates and disagreements.

I can make a pretty good case for Usyk actually being the current lineal champion.

The point is, it doesn't matter what we think. The fighters were supposed to leave no doubt. Fight the challengers. Emerge as the one true, universally recognised champion.

They don't do that. So it's worthless until someone comes along and makes it worthwhile again.

[M312]

I do happen to think Wlad was lineal champion.

That's the thing about lineal... it's full of debates and disagreements.

I can make a pretty good case for Usyk actually being the current lineal champion.

The point is, it doesn't matter what we think. The fighters were supposed to leave no doubt. Fight the challengers. Emerge as the one true, universally recognised champion.

They don't do that. So it's worthless until someone comes along and makes it worthwhile again.

Lineal isn't a debate.

You're talking about being 'the man'. That's fine. You can call whoever you want that.

Lineal follows a lianage. Wladimir, nor Usyk have done that, and neither became undisputed number 1 either and cleaned up either. So there is no debate or disagreement.

It's black and white.

[Toffee]

Lineal isn't a debate.

You're talking about being 'the man'. That's fine. You can call whoever you want that.

Lineal follows a lianage. Wladimir, nor Usyk have done that, and neither became undisputed number 1 either and cleaned up either. So there is no debate or disagreement.

It's black and white.

No I'm talking about lineage.

If we're going on that basis then Ali wasn't lineal either.

How is a new lineage created?

It's absolutely not black and white.

[Marchegiano]

Lineal isn't a debate.

You're talking about being 'the man'. That's fine. You can call whoever you want that.

Lineal follows a lianage. Wladimir, nor Usyk have done that, and neither became undisputed number 1 either and cleaned up either. So there is no debate or disagreement.

It's black and white.

It is though. When Corbett handed his title to Maher there was debate. When Jeffries chose Hart and Root there was debate. You recognize Hart but not Maher because Jeff won his debate and Corbett lost his. The debates always been there.

[kafkod]

Lineal isn't a debate.

You're talking about being 'the man'. That's fine. You can call whoever you want that.

Lineal follows a lianage. Wladimir, nor Usyk have done that, and neither became undisputed number 1 either and cleaned up either. So there is no debate or disagreement.

It's black and white.

No I'm talking about lineage.

If we're going on that basis then Ali wasn't lineal either.

How is a new lineage created?

It's absolutely not black and white.

To make sense of this dispute you need to separate "the lineage", which is a matter of objective, historical fact, and "the lineal champion", which is a subjective mental concept based on a judgement call.

The lineage of HW champions is black and white. Like I said, it is a matter of objective historical fact, like a family tree. And, like a family tree, it can have more than one branch. Nobody looks at a family tree and asks questions like ... which of the 3 sons of John Smith is the REAL son of John Smith? Which of their 3 families is the REAL Smith family? There can be only one!

At times when the HW lineage is divided, as it is now, with different versions of the title held by more than one individual, the question: "Which of those individuals is the lineal champion?" has no objective answer. We have to either accept that the question has more than one answer, or stop asking it and wait for the lineage to be united by an undisputed title fight.

[_Rexy_]

There is loads in that post that's funny as ****, but, for me this list got me best.

What even is a forvanta?

Aries? Not Apollo? You sure?

Those names, the ones that aren't made up, ain't even in proper order.


good stuff.

In Japan, it's thought that the first few emperors didn't actually exist, as they are direct descendants of the sun god. I had no idea the Heavyweight Championship of the world was held by Greek and Roman gods though!

[Marchegiano]

In Japan, it's thought that the first few emperors didn't actually exist, as they are direct descendants of the sun god. I had no idea the Heavyweight Championship of the world was held by Greek and Roman gods though!

Personally I think it's really cool. There are loads of gods of the dead and **** like that, but there is only one boxing god. Egypt, China, Hindi, Norse, ain't no one else got a god of boxing and conversely ain't very many sports with a god central to its origin story.

Furthering the uniqueness, Aries in Rome is Mars. Zeus is Jupiter. Apollo though ... What is Apollo's Romanized name? Ain't got one. Apollo is Apollo. The god of boxing has only one name. One face. He is the eternal champion and always the idealized version of what a boxer should be ... hence ... Apollo Creed.


Sumo is cool too. I don't know much about Japanese political mythology but Sumo mythology is cool. Similar but very different also.

[juggernaut666]

Let's see what kind of posters we have here.

Some posters here are thinking that "The WBC should strip Fury!!" (For choosing to fight Francis Ngannou next instead of Oleksandr Usyk, I guess).

While I too pine for the unification of the major title claims and look forward to how Fury and Usyk deal with each other's talents; the historian in me has to ask "Strip him of what?".

Of course, the WBC is contemplating no such thing, as Fury remains up to date with his mandatory defenses.
But once upon a time, they threatened to do something similar to Larry Holmes for opting out of meeting another of Don King's fighters (Greg Page) who'd blown his shot by losing to Trevor Berbick on the Holmes-Cooney undercard (Berbick got the shot at Holmes and of course, got beat).
No tears for ol' Greg though, as King would partner with los Banditos to allow many in his stable to wear one bogus title belt or another, including Page.

Holmes' bold response was to ****can the WBC belt he'd won and defended 16 times, and he accepted the belt of the fledgling IBF, thereby legitimizing that new organization. With this act, fans of the sport were reminded that the fighters and their FIGHTS matter more than the "who died and left you boss?" style Sanctioning bodies.

The following is the accepted recording of "The Heavyweight Championship of the world" and is archived as such by nearly all of the world's foremost institutions of learning and research.


The Title Fury owns - The Lineage :

Forvanta- Phorbas- Aries- Herakles- Tydeus- Polydeusus- Theseus- Onomastos- Diappos- Komaios- Pythagoras- Tisandros- Praxidamas- Glaucos- Philon- Ikkos- Diognetos- Euthymos- Theagenes- Euthymos- Menalkes- Diagoras- Akousilous- Alkainetos- Kleomachos- Eukles- Demarchos- Phormion- Damoxenidas- Labax- Aristion- Philammon- Asamon- Mys- Satyros- Satyros- Archippos- Kallippos- Kleitomachus- Epitherses- Xenothemius- Agesarchos- Atyanas- Thaliarchos- Nikophon- Demokrates- Melankomas- Herakliedes- Marcus Tullius- Photion- Buck- Stokes- Flanders- Clarkson- Sutton- Figg- Pipes- Taylor- Broughton- Slack- Stevens- Meggs- Millsom- Jachau- Darts- Lyons- Darts- Corcoran- Sellers- Ferns- Johnson- Brian- Mendoza- Jackson- Owen- Bartholomew- Belcher- Pearce- Gully- Cribb- Spring- Cannon- Ward- Crawley- Ward- Burke- Thompson- Caunt- Ward- Caunt- Thompson- Perry- Broome- Paddock- Sayers- Hurst- Mace- King- Wormald- Mace- Coburn- Mace- Allen- Goss- Ryan- Sullivan- Corbett- Fitzsimmons- Jeffries- Hart- Burns- Johnson- Willard- Dempsey- Tunney- Schmelling- Sharkey- Carnera- Bear- Braddock- Louis- Charles- Walcott- Marciano- Patterson- Johansson- Patterson- Liston- Ali- Frazier- Foreman- Ali- L. Spinks- Ali- Holmes- M. Spinks- Tyson- Douglas- Holyfield- Bowe- Holyfield- Moorer- Foreman- Briggs- Lewis- Rachman- Lewis- Klitschko- Fury.



The Belts that Usyk owns - The Lineage:

Martin- Joshua- Ruiz- Joshua- Usyk.



These very different title histories are documented, empirical world history that is endorsed by Sorbonne University, Paris, France; Sapienza University of Rome, Rome, Italy; University of Cambridge, United Kingdom; Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München, Munich, Germany; The University of Oxford, United Kingdom; Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts, United States, Peking University, Beijing, China, Leiden University, Leiden, Netherlands; University of California, Berkeley, Berkeley, California, United States; University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, United States; University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada and Yale University, New Haven, Connecticut, United States; and we can all look that up - nobody's "opinion".

The full Liniage (Fury's title) has met all criteria to become academic History.
It cannot be reinterpreted or denied.

There is no "reformation" in the Apostolic line here, and this isn't some 19th century field game. It's the only method of unarmed combat for sport that recorded human history deems as important.

Therefore.....

This is no 50/50 split fight my friends.
Fury’s offer to Usyk was fair. Usyk's team walked away from negotiations and Usyk got dropped hard by underdog Daniel Dubois and by the interpretation of many, got KO'd.

Usyk can box great, but let's be honest; he's no greater a threat to Tyson Fury than Whyte, Chisora or perhaps, even hard hitting MMA converted boxer Francis Ngannou, for that matter, If I want to stretch it a little.

This "unification" fight is actually about Usyk challenging the one champion for something real.


Feel a lot smarter about what the heavyweight title is now?

You should.

Because you are!

To follow will likely include some silly arguments from folks who refuse to be taught; but I have put it out there for those who want to go beyond the blogger headlines to actually understand the sport.

I do this strictly as favor to the sport.
But I'll read everyone's responses. All four of them.

Where would you rank Santa Clause though ? originally known as Satan Claws the mystical creature who stood 8 feet tall and was a blue like demon with sharp claws who punished children and enslaved them . Surely he was stronger then Hercules and would have exceeded in skill over any boxer in history so much Fury would have to hand over the WBC lineal belt that existed for thousands of years imop as well .

[kafkod]

In Japan, it's thought that the first few emperors didn't actually exist, as they are direct descendants of the sun god. I had no idea the Heavyweight Championship of the world was held by Greek and Roman gods though!

Personally I think it's really cool. There are loads of gods of the dead and **** like that, but there is only one boxing god. Egypt, China, Hindi, Norse, ain't no one else got a god of boxing and conversely ain't very many sports with a god central to its origin story.

Furthering the uniqueness, Aries in Rome is Mars. Zeus is Jupiter. Apollo though ... What is Apollo's Romanized name? Ain't got one. Apollo is Apollo. The god of boxing has only one name. One face. He is the eternal champion and always the idealized version of what a boxer should be ... hence ... Apollo Creed.


Sumo is cool too. I don't know much about Japanese political mythology but Sumo mythology is cool. Similar but very different also.

Headline from the Athenian Sporting Gazette, circa 850 BC (since lost to posterity)

ARIES TESTS POSITIVE FOR IMMORTALITY!
LINEAL HEAVYWEIGHT TILE FIGHT WITH THESEUS IS OFF!