Why there is only One Heavyweight Champion

[kafkod]

That's just it, it's NOT meaningful. The only meaningful thing is who can beat whom on any given day. That is the ONLY thing that matters in combat sports. Your are conflating history with boxing knowledge. Being able to read "who begat who" doesn't make anyone knowledgeable about boxing, it makes them knowledgeable about history. It's pretentious.

That list he posted also conflates history with mythology, which is why I was poking fun at it.

[Toffee]

We're kind of talking across each other here. When I said the lineage of HW champions became divided I was simply referring to the historical record of all the fighters who have held officially recognised versions of world HW titles since the days of John L.

What I'm saying is that that historical record is the only HW lineage which has any real, objective meaning. The record of so called lineal champions is not objective because it is based partly on historical fact and partly on subjective judgement calls.

Lennox Lewis was the last undisputed champion. He was the undisputed champion because he held all the championship belts. So obviously the organisations/belts must matter!

Tyson Fury, allegedly, has been the lineal champion since beating Wlad. But nobody outside of Fury and his most delusional fan boys were calling his comeback fights against Seferi and Pianeta lineal HW title fights. It was only after he drew with/defeated Wilder for the WBC title that anybody outside of the Fury fan boy clique starting taking his lineal title claim seriously.

And if nobody takes organisations/belts seriously, then why is everybody involved with Fury/Ngannou so keen for Fury to go into that fight as WBC champion?

We seem to be practically on the same page here. Yes, the belts are an objective view of who is the champion. We might not always think the orgs operate in the best interests of boxing, or necessarily think that a belt owner is the best in the division, but it's at least objective. You're either a champion or you're not.

And yes, Undisputed is very highly regarded for the simple reason that you have to prove yourself against other champions to get to that status.

Lineal is absolutely subjective. As I mentioned, I can make a case for Usyk that I believe is as credible as the case for Fury... depending on the individual's interpretation of the rules (there are no real rules). It was Fury who turned it into a marketing tool.

I still believe that Lineal should mean something. But it will take the claimants to make it that way. The credibility of any title is determined by the owner's behaviour.

At the moment, Lineal isn't worth anything. And I think that's a shame. And as a boxing fan, I hold Fury to account for that. He claims it, while degrading it's credibility.

I don't know much about Fury v Ngannou and plan to keep it that way!

[techliam]

No one disputes?

Obviously too young to know that Wladimir was never a true lineal champion.

The whole thing is a marketing ploy for those who don't know or easily forget.

Where’s the dispute exactly?
if not Wlad, the vacant lineage definitely stemmed from Wilder

Happy to hear you out, as you seem really certain

[joe strong]

Let's see what kind of posters we have here.

Some posters here are thinking that "The WBC should strip Fury!!" (For choosing to fight Francis Ngannou next instead of Oleksandr Usyk, I guess).

While I too pine for the unification of the major title claims and look forward to how Fury and Usyk deal with each other's talents; the historian in me has to ask "Strip him of what?".

Of course, the WBC is contemplating no such thing, as Fury remains up to date with his mandatory defenses.
But once upon a time, they threatened to do something similar to Larry Holmes for opting out of meeting another of Don King's fighters (Greg Page) who'd blown his shot by losing to Trevor Berbick on the Holmes-Cooney undercard (Berbick got the shot at Holmes and of course, got beat).
No tears for ol' Greg though, as King would partner with los Banditos to allow many in his stable to wear one bogus title belt or another, including Page.

Holmes' bold response was to ****can the WBC belt he'd won and defended 16 times, and he accepted the belt of the fledgling IBF, thereby legitimizing that new organization. With this act, fans of the sport were reminded that the fighters and their FIGHTS matter more than the "who died and left you boss?" style Sanctioning bodies.

The following is the accepted recording of "The Heavyweight Championship of the world" and is archived as such by nearly all of the world's foremost institutions of learning and research.


The Title Fury owns - The Lineage :

Forvanta- Phorbas- Aries- Herakles- Tydeus- Polydeusus- Theseus- Onomastos- Diappos- Komaios- Pythagoras- Tisandros- Praxidamas- Glaucos- Philon- Ikkos- Diognetos- Euthymos- Theagenes- Euthymos- Menalkes- Diagoras- Akousilous- Alkainetos- Kleomachos- Eukles- Demarchos- Phormion- Damoxenidas- Labax- Aristion- Philammon- Asamon- Mys- Satyros- Satyros- Archippos- Kallippos- Kleitomachus- Epitherses- Xenothemius- Agesarchos- Atyanas- Thaliarchos- Nikophon- Demokrates- Melankomas- Herakliedes- Marcus Tullius- Photion- Buck- Stokes- Flanders- Clarkson- Sutton- Figg- Pipes- Taylor- Broughton- Slack- Stevens- Meggs- Millsom- Jachau- Darts- Lyons- Darts- Corcoran- Sellers- Ferns- Johnson- Brian- Mendoza- Jackson- Owen- Bartholomew- Belcher- Pearce- Gully- Cribb- Spring- Cannon- Ward- Crawley- Ward- Burke- Thompson- Caunt- Ward- Caunt- Thompson- Perry- Broome- Paddock- Sayers- Hurst- Mace- King- Wormald- Mace- Coburn- Mace- Allen- Goss- Ryan- Sullivan- Corbett- Fitzsimmons- Jeffries- Hart- Burns- Johnson- Willard- Dempsey- Tunney- Schmelling- Sharkey- Carnera- Bear- Braddock- Louis- Charles- Walcott- Marciano- Patterson- Johansson- Patterson- Liston- Ali- Frazier- Foreman- Ali- L. Spinks- Ali- Holmes- M. Spinks- Tyson- Douglas- Holyfield- Bowe- Holyfield- Moorer- Foreman- Briggs- Lewis- Rachman- Lewis- Klitschko- Fury.



The Belts that Usyk owns - The Lineage:

Martin- Joshua- Ruiz- Joshua- Usyk.



These very different title histories are documented, empirical world history that is endorsed by Sorbonne University, Paris, France; Sapienza University of Rome, Rome, Italy; University of Cambridge, United Kingdom; Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München, Munich, Germany; The University of Oxford, United Kingdom; Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts, United States, Peking University, Beijing, China, Leiden University, Leiden, Netherlands; University of California, Berkeley, Berkeley, California, United States; University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, United States; University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada and Yale University, New Haven, Connecticut, United States; and we can all look that up - nobody's "opinion".

The full Liniage (Fury's title) has met all criteria to become academic History.
It cannot be reinterpreted or denied.

There is no "reformation" in the Apostolic line here, and this isn't some 19th century field game. It's the only method of unarmed combat for sport that recorded human history deems as important.

Therefore.....

This is no 50/50 split fight my friends.
Fury’s offer to Usyk was fair. Usyk's team walked away from negotiations and Usyk got dropped hard by underdog Daniel Dubois and by the interpretation of many, got KO'd.

Usyk can box great, but let's be honest; he's no greater a threat to Tyson Fury than Whyte, Chisora or perhaps, even hard hitting MMA converted boxer Francis Ngannou, for that matter, If I want to stretch it a little.

This "unification" fight is actually about Usyk challenging the one champion for something real.


Feel a lot smarter about what the heavyweight title is now?

You should.

Because you are!

To follow will likely include some silly arguments from folks who refuse to be taught; but I have put it out there for those who want to go beyond the blogger headlines to actually understand the sport.

I do this strictly as favor to the sport.
But I'll read everyone's responses. All four of them.

lol! Funny thing is I always said the WBO belt was a joke! When Tyson was undisputed the WBO had Francesco Damiani & Johnny Duplooy fight for the inaugural HW title… 3 times Sanders, Mercer & one more (Moorer or Bowe I think) all dumped it for bigger fights.

[QueensburyRules]

Let's see what kind of posters we have here.

Some posters here are thinking that "The WBC should strip Fury!!" (For choosing to fight Francis Ngannou next instead of Oleksandr Usyk, I guess).

While I too pine for the unification of the major title claims and look forward to how Fury and Usyk deal with each other's talents; the historian in me has to ask "Strip him of what?".

Of course, the WBC is contemplating no such thing, as Fury remains up to date with his mandatory defenses.
But once upon a time, they threatened to do something similar to Larry Holmes for opting out of meeting another of Don King's fighters (Greg Page) who'd blown his shot by losing to Trevor Berbick on the Holmes-Cooney undercard (Berbick got the shot at Holmes and of course, got beat).
No tears for ol' Greg though, as King would partner with los Banditos to allow many in his stable to wear one bogus title belt or another, including Page.

Holmes' bold response was to ****can the WBC belt he'd won and defended 16 times, and he accepted the belt of the fledgling IBF, thereby legitimizing that new organization. With this act, fans of the sport were reminded that the fighters and their FIGHTS matter more than the "who died and left you boss?" style Sanctioning bodies.

The following is the accepted recording of "The Heavyweight Championship of the world" and is archived as such by nearly all of the world's foremost institutions of learning and research.


The Title Fury owns - The Lineage :

Forvanta- Phorbas- Aries- Herakles- Tydeus- Polydeusus- Theseus- Onomastos- Diappos- Komaios- Pythagoras- Tisandros- Praxidamas- Glaucos- Philon- Ikkos- Diognetos- Euthymos- Theagenes- Euthymos- Menalkes- Diagoras- Akousilous- Alkainetos- Kleomachos- Eukles- Demarchos- Phormion- Damoxenidas- Labax- Aristion- Philammon- Asamon- Mys- Satyros- Satyros- Archippos- Kallippos- Kleitomachus- Epitherses- Xenothemius- Agesarchos- Atyanas- Thaliarchos- Nikophon- Demokrates- Melankomas- Herakliedes- Marcus Tullius- Photion- Buck- Stokes- Flanders- Clarkson- Sutton- Figg- Pipes- Taylor- Broughton- Slack- Stevens- Meggs- Millsom- Jachau- Darts- Lyons- Darts- Corcoran- Sellers- Ferns- Johnson- Brian- Mendoza- Jackson- Owen- Bartholomew- Belcher- Pearce- Gully- Cribb- Spring- Cannon- Ward- Crawley- Ward- Burke- Thompson- Caunt- Ward- Caunt- Thompson- Perry- Broome- Paddock- Sayers- Hurst- Mace- King- Wormald- Mace- Coburn- Mace- Allen- Goss- Ryan- Sullivan- Corbett- Fitzsimmons- Jeffries- Hart- Burns- Johnson- Willard- Dempsey- Tunney- Schmelling- Sharkey- Carnera- Bear- Braddock- Louis- Charles- Walcott- Marciano- Patterson- Johansson- Patterson- Liston- Ali- Frazier- Foreman- Ali- L. Spinks- Ali- Holmes- M. Spinks- Tyson- Douglas- Holyfield- Bowe- Holyfield- Moorer- Foreman- Briggs- Lewis- Rachman- Lewis- Klitschko- Fury.



The Belts that Usyk owns - The Lineage:

Martin- Joshua- Ruiz- Joshua- Usyk.



These very different title histories are documented, empirical world history that is endorsed by Sorbonne University, Paris, France; Sapienza University of Rome, Rome, Italy; University of Cambridge, United Kingdom; Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München, Munich, Germany; The University of Oxford, United Kingdom; Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts, United States, Peking University, Beijing, China, Leiden University, Leiden, Netherlands; University of California, Berkeley, Berkeley, California, United States; University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, United States; University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada and Yale University, New Haven, Connecticut, United States; and we can all look that up - nobody's "opinion".

The full Liniage (Fury's title) has met all criteria to become academic History.
It cannot be reinterpreted or denied.

There is no "reformation" in the Apostolic line here, and this isn't some 19th century field game. It's the only method of unarmed combat for sport that recorded human history deems as important.

Therefore.....

This is no 50/50 split fight my friends.
Fury’s offer to Usyk was fair. Usyk's team walked away from negotiations and Usyk got dropped hard by underdog Daniel Dubois and by the interpretation of many, got KO'd.

Usyk can box great, but let's be honest; he's no greater a threat to Tyson Fury than Whyte, Chisora or perhaps, even hard hitting MMA converted boxer Francis Ngannou, for that matter, If I want to stretch it a little.

This "unification" fight is actually about Usyk challenging the one champion for something real.


Feel a lot smarter about what the heavyweight title is now?

You should.

Because you are!

To follow will likely include some silly arguments from folks who refuse to be taught; but I have put it out there for those who want to go beyond the blogger headlines to actually understand the sport.

I do this strictly as favor to the sport.
But I'll read everyone's responses. All four of them.

- - Peking Uni, eh?

What grade was U in then?

[M312]

Where’s the dispute exactly?
if not Wlad, the vacant lineage definitely stemmed from Wilder

Happy to hear you out, as you seem really certain

Wilder?

There is NO lineal title.

The line is broken, and the only way it can arguably be remade is an undisputed champion. I don't think many would argue about that. Certainly not me.

Long story short Wladimir was 'recognised' by some because he would never fight his brother (so 'couldn't' become undisputed) and they needed to market him as people just didn't find him interesting.

Elephant in the room... Vitali would have wiped the flood with Wladimir with ease.

Not my problem they wouldn't fight each other. Lineal title has never been more fantasy.

[kafkod]

We seem to be practically on the same page here. Yes, the belts are an objective view of who is the champion. We might not always think the orgs operate in the best interests of boxing, or necessarily think that a belt owner is the best in the division, but it's at least objective. You're either a champion or you're not.

And yes, Undisputed is very highly regarded for the simple reason that you have to prove yourself against other champions to get to that status.

Lineal is absolutely subjective. As I mentioned, I can make a case for Usyk that I believe is as credible as the case for Fury... depending on the individual's interpretation of the rules (there are no real rules). It was Fury who turned it into a marketing tool.

I still believe that Lineal should mean something. But it will take the claimants to make it that way. The credibility of any title is determined by the owner's behaviour.

At the moment, Lineal isn't worth anything. And I think that's a shame. And as a boxing fan, I hold Fury to account for that. He claims it, while degrading it's credibility.

I don't know much about Fury v Ngannou and plan to keep it that way!

Lineal only seems to mean anything when fighters holding different alphabet belts either don't want to fight each other or are being kept apart by promotional/network rivalry.

The lineal LHW title was very important when it was "held" by Adonis Stevenson and Kovalev was being hailed as the LHW No1 by many. It stopped mattering so much after Stevenson lost to Gvozdyk and is hardly ever mentioned now.

The lineal MW title was just as important while it was being "held" by Canelo and defended at 155lb. It ceased to exist after Canelo left the MW division and nobody seemed to even notice its disappearance!

It may have been pure co-incidence that the mythical lineal titles mentioned above were both held in conjunction with WBC belts during the time when they were being talked about so incessantly. But I'm 100% sure that the WBC is now making a deliberate, conscious effort to associate their HW title belt with "The Lineal Heavyweight Title" in the minds of casual boxing fans and the public in general, which is why they are colluding with Tyson Fury in his cross over adventure.

[tonysoprano]

How do you put this idiot and his threads on ignore?