Thrilla in Manila on HBO

[TheGreatA]

If Frazier was never really Ali's friend, why did he give him money to support his family when he was in exile?

You can argue that maybe he wanted Ali's license back just so he could fight him.

But I don't think you can argue about Frazier helping support Ali when he was exiled and forced to do cheap plays and college speaking engagements for quick cash.

Frazier helped him no doubt. I respect him highly as a person, he'd give you the shirt off his back if he had nothing else to help with.

This doesn't necessarily mean they were friends. From the beginning Frazier had stated that Ali was his goal and that he wanted to beat him to prove that he is the true champion.

He was especially frustrated when people were not recognizing him as the real champion while Ali was in exile. He did everything he could to get Ali back in the ring.

[-Incred-]

It was a damn good documentary. Ali was a ****, and his "apology" does not change that.

[Porter's Dad]

Joe gloating about Ali's current state is much more crass than anything Ali ever said.

[ßringer]

listen man... you have bernard hopkins in you sig,,,look what he did to tito.

What Ali did to Joe Fraizor was all before the fight. and after every fight he gave joe friazor his credit.

Once Again:

IF YOU can BEAT YOUR OPPONENT BEFORE THE FIGHT EVEN BEGINS....
you do it.

Ali did it.
Hopkins did it
Floyd did it..


What Frazior is doing now is fucck up....Frazior is not fighting Ali anymore..
but he is wishing Ali the worst **** in the world...

Frazior is walking around with hate in his heart.

Tossing down a flag (Hopkins/Tito), or stealing someone's gym bag (Floyd/Oscar) are nothing at all like labelling someone as a race trader, an "Uncle Tom" and a "Gorilla".

Especially when Joe Frazier lived the black experience much more than Ali did. Joe Frazier was born the poor son of a sharecropper in racist assed South Carolina, where he worked on a white man's farm as a child.

Muhammad Ali was born a middle class kid in Louisville who never had any other profession other than being Muhammad Ali.

I understand gamesmanship just fine. But Ali crossed the line into totally different territory with Frazier.

We will have to agree to disagree on that.

But I do agree that Joe is walking around with hate in his heart, and that he would be better to let it go.

Frazier has also said some very nice things about Ali, as Ali did with Frazier, after the fact.

But you, I, and nobody else in this thread will ever understand how those two men felt. So all we can do is debate it from our own perspective.

[TheGreatA]

Here's a very good interview with Frazier from 1971:

But most men, when they start out, have goals. I mean, they going to do this and going to do that. Well, from the beginning, Clay has been the man. The one I wanted to beat. You're never sure you'll ever get there, get to the Big One, but I have. All the goals have been met and now there's one left—Cassius Clay. And I got him March 8th.

From the beginning, this is the fight I wanted. That's all I heard when I was coming up—Clay's this and Clay's that, Clay's the man. When I came from the Olympics he told me, "Come on up, work hard and I'll make you rich." You know what? I came up, I got rich and he got poor. Now I'm making him rich. Ain't that something? I mean, he ought to kiss me. I got him back in the fight game and got him two-and-a-half million dollars besides.

It's funny how life turns. If it weren't for me he wouldn't be a fighter today. He wouldn't have no reason to tie the gloves back on. But all that time he couldn't fight, I kept him alive. I would never say anything bad about him, regardless of what he stands for. If anybody ask me, I have nothing but good to say about him. I tell 'em his religion is his belief. That's his right.

Still, I say he's a loudmouth. He makes a bunch of noise. But I don't see why he wants to talk that I'm a Tom, that I don't stand up for the black man. Sure I stand up for the black man. But the most important thing, I stand up for Joe Frazier. That's where it all begins, each man standing up for himself and looking after his family.

Clay, he makes me laugh. What do he know about hard times? Bigmouthing and loud talk, yeah he's an expert on that, but hard times—that's something else. At least in boxing, everything has been easy for him. He had a white man in the corner and those rich plantation people to back him. A white lawyer kept him out of jail. And he's going to Uncle Tom me. Now, I have a black man as a manager and both white and black people in the group backing me. But long before there was anybody, there was Joe Frazier, working hard, making it on his own. Ever since I came up from the South, in 1961 or '62, I had a steady job. Most of the time it was in the slaughterhouse, hard, long work. Sometimes I had three or four jobs. I got married young, had kids and wanted to take care of them. I wanted to be somebody. Make something of myself. So I'd go to work 4:30 in the morning, work until 6 at night, then go into the gym. Often I'd run at night after I got through. Trying to get my body in shape, sacrifice so as I could make it. I neglected my family a lot, but it was for a good cause, for me and for them.

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1084610/index.htm

[ßringer]

Joe gloating about Ali's current state is much more crass than anything Ali ever said.

More crass than "race trader"?

More crass than "gorilla"?

More crass than "white man's champion"?

More crass than when Ali told his wife that Joe Frazier was "the definition of a nigger"?

More crass than when Ali said he had more respect for the "white devil" than Frazier?

[MoneyMayFan]

More crass than "race trader"?

More crass than "gorilla"?

More crass than "white man's champion"?

More crass than when Ali told his wife that Joe Frazier was "the definition of a nigger"?

More crass than when Ali said he had more respect for the "white devil" than Frazier?

of course..how can u not see that?...

[Horus]

More crass than "race trader"?

More crass than "gorilla"?

More crass than "white man's champion"?

More crass than when Ali told his wife that Joe Frazier was "the definition of a nigger"?

More crass than when Ali said he had more respect for the "white devil" than Frazier?

that **** was all before a fight...that **** was meant to get frazior focus on everything but boxing...


One guy has to be willing to say **** being politically correct. My life is on the line, and i have to make sure i make my opponent focuses on everything but boxing before he fights me...

And thats what Ali did the best...

And this is why he is the greatest..


What fraizor is doing is way worst then anything Ali has ever done...
because Frazior is not fighting anyone..and he is walking around with hate in his heart

[Dynamite Kid]

Listen you guys..

bOxing is the Sweet ART OF WAR...
THAT **** aint a game. People get hurt.

IF YOU can BEAT YOUR OPPONENT BEFORE THE FIGHT EVEN BEGINS....
you do it.

Ali was the best ever at winning the fight before the belt even rang...
and that means saying **** that the normal person wouldnt say...
this means going inside a person comfort zone and removing everything they hold dear to them...
This is what seperates the greats from the very good.
This is why People win and why people lose.

One guy has to be willing to say **** being politically correct. My life is on the line, and i have to make sure i make my opponent focuses on everything but boxing before he fights me...

And thats what Ali did the best...

And this is why he is the greatest..


P.S
why is larry holmes in this ****...

There is a line you dont cross though, and Ali crossed it with Frazier just as Bramble crossed it when he called Ray Mancini a murder after what happened with Kim.

[Stab Judah]

No it wasn't he called Joe Louis an "uncle Tom" also!
What was Ali looking for a big pay day fighting Joe Louis in 64?
No it was Ali's true opinion.