Duran is not a top ten ATG

[BadNewz]

It's obvious people think Duran is great only because the boxing establishment is so racist. They hate black people so much that they'll do anything to not have to admit that there was an all-black elite in that era. So they create a myth about Duran so they can have him on the list, even though there's no way he belong.

It's too bad Floyd Mayweather or Pernell Whitaker wasn't around at lightweight back then. Prime for prime, Duran gets destroyed.

[wpink1]

so wink where would you rank duran, I am leaning towards top20-25 top 30 may have been too low now that I look at my list. he did win four titles in four weight classes and he was dominant at 135.

Somewhere between 10-20. Lets be honest, he dominated the lightweights for a decade, and moved up beat Ray in one of the greatest WW fights ever, and won titles vs young fighters at jr middle and middle weight divisions.

Duran that stepped in the ring in montreal, was a great fighter. However, he was dominant vs a certain style, unfortunately and fortunatley both...Ray chose the wrong style that night. In brief periods in that fight ray did box Duran and showed the when you box him, use your jab and use speed and mobility to not present a stationary target for duran he is not the same. Rounds 5-7 of the 1st fight, show just how frustereated Duran was with this style even in the 1st fight.

Pound per Pound I rate Duran behind Roy Jones, SRL, above mayweather (today that is), above chavez, right above whitacker,

I would go on what i have seen...

SRR
Armstrong
Ali
Jones
SRL
Louis

Fighters like Greb, Dempsey, Tunny, Langford....I did not see them. So I cant rank them. I believe this is the big challenge, as they fought a different style, more stationary etc. Look at what happened when liston who was feared through out all of boxing, when he came up against a mobile clay, or Duran when he came up against leonard. Speed, angles, mobility changes everything. Not that it always is better, look at camacho vs Chavez, or fighters like Nunn, Norris very gifted but their speed could not take them to the promised land.


Badnewz... As for Duran vs mayweather and Whitacker at lightweight. IMO Whitacker would have gotten beaten, but Mayweather is a lot tougher than many seem to thnk, and at lightweight he was everybit as good as Leoanrd pound per pound. Look at how he destroyed Corrales who was looked at the lightweight version of tommy hearns. Now styles makes fights, and it was not Leonards size, power, etc that beat Duran. What it was was his speed, his mobility, counter punching etc. IMO Mayweather could not beat Leoanrd because of size and power and they both had mostly the same package except for 2 very important tools..

One mayweather was better defensivly, and better inside defensively. Thus nullifying the great inside work Duran does.

Two. mayweather is faster with his single one punch counter. Ray leoanrd was faster with combinations. Mayweather one punch counter was more precise, faster, accurate and at lightweight very strong.

The package mayweather possessed,,hmmm let me say it like this, if Duran was frusterated in the 2nd leoanrd fight, he would commit suicide vs mayweather. As the style leonard used is the maywether blueprint for success. Styles makes fights,, and all we can go on from Duran is what he showed vs leoanrd WHEN LEONARD DECIDED TO BOX HIM... and that was he was not able to cope.

Roy jones IMO and apparantley Leonard's opinion too as he was trying to get him to sign with his promtional company, and is on record saying that if Jones had been around when they where boxing, Jones would probably have beaten all of them, because of his speed, reach, power, and unorthodox very awkard style.... Roy of the 90's was simply to fast, strong, awkward. No he never developed a jab, but his speed and split second counters and lead left hooks was his jab, as a jab like leonard used is used to measure your opponents and set them up for your right hand and left hook. Well roy would take about 2 minutes usually to time his opponents and know what they would do, then he would use precise split second counters to literally leave his opposition punchless.

[Brandish]

It's obvious people think Duran is great only because the boxing establishment is so racist. They hate black people so much that they'll do anything to not have to admit that there was an all-black elite in that era. So they create a myth about Duran so they can have him on the list, even though there's no way he belong.

It's too bad Floyd Mayweather or Pernell Whitaker wasn't around at lightweight back then. Prime for prime, Duran gets destroyed.

I am glad I am not the only one he saw this coming. during the 80's and 90;s when duran was getting beat up no one was proclaiming him top 5 or even top 10 atg because his career didn't reflect such lofty accoldaes.

I have even been accused of being racist for having an all black top ten atg list, which is justifiable on any level. the same thing they did with duran they will do with de la hoya and pacquiaou overinflate their accom[plsihments and downgrade the black elite fighters like:

roy, floyd, bhop, toney, lewis, holyfield, and trinidad

[TheGreatA]

Duran was already thought to be an all time great even before he beat Leonard.

If you believe there's some kind of a conspiracy behind it then that's your business but in most people's eyes it makes you look like an ignorant idiot.

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...3556/index.htm

[Brandish]

Somewhere between 10-20. Lets be honest, he dominated the lightweights for a decade, and moved up beat Ray in one of the greatest WW fights ever, and won titles vs young fighters at jr middle and middle weight divisions.

Duran that stepped in the ring in montreal, was a great fighter. However, he was dominant vs a certain style, unfortunately and fortunatley both...Ray chose the wrong style that night. In brief periods in that fight ray did box Duran and showed the when you box him, use your jab and use speed and mobility to not present a stationary target for duran he is not the same. Rounds 5-7 of the 1st fight, show just how frustereated Duran was with this style even in the 1st fight.

Pound per Pound I rate Duran behind Roy Jones, SRL, above mayweather (today that is), above chavez, right above whitacker,

good post. I wouldn't put duran over may or sweet pea based on their dominance outside of their prime weight class if duran could have made a run at 147 like sweet pea did then I could definitely see him being ranked top 10. duran I could see beating pea who sometimes took his foot of the gas pedal, and was not the most explosive puncher. but not floyd who would have boxed circle's around duran. overall accomplishments lead me to have sweet pea over duran..more title defenses more victories in championship fights those are the things I look at most when considering atg status.

floyd's record in championship fights is unmatched (fact check me if I am wrong) in the modern era by guys who climb multiple weights. you normally have to be in one division to get a championship record like that sort of like b-hop. Duran was an atg at 135 floyd was an atg at 130 where floyd seperates himself is after he left his prime weight, he was still able to dominate much larger fighters.

[Kid McCoy]

Outside of Sugar Ray Robinson..Leoanrd probably beat more top fightere all time than anyone else. Ali beat some too. The difference is that Robinson and Ali did have long reigns.? Guess what, they are ranked higher on every list including mine than Ray is.

Hmmm Quality plus quantity = top 1o all time.

Harry Greb beat 12 Hall of Famers, most of them multiple times, in addition to a galaxy of top contenders and uncrowned champions. He weighed 160, and beat five men who fought Jack Dempsey for the heavyweight title. Sam Langford, Benny Leonard, Willie Pep, Henry Armstrong, Mickey Walker, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and numerous others all beat more top fighters than Leonard did. You can't hammer Duran on the one hand, yet at the same time rank Leonard above all these guys effectively on the basis of four wins, all of which were close and/or controversial.

Seems to me you leave out quit a bit....

Yes I did, intentionally so, to prove my point that anyone's record can be picked apart if you include and exclude the right information, just as you did with Duran.

It's also worth bearing in mind that Duran was 71-1 before he ever faced one of the Fab Four. At the half-way point in his career, he'd already had more fights than Leonard, Hagler, Benitez and Hearns had in their entire careers. Make Hagler have 72 fights at middle and then move up to face a prime Mike Spinks or have Leonard and Benitez contest 72 fights at welter before moving to face a peak Hagler and see how they fare.

Yes, Duran's record above 135 is more patchy, but then so is Ray's above 147. PBF's record above 135 would be patchy too had he not managed to avoid most of his best peers. Two of the four wins you cite for Leonard being all-time top ten were against fellow welters, one a lightweight, and one a middleweight. One fight with Kalule, one fight with Hagler, and one fight with Lalonde reaped four titles, but didn't exactly demonstrate his greatness at higher weights.

Duran had beautiful skills, great balance and footwork, a very underrated defence, an excellent chin, KO power and went 72-1, which included being virtually unbeatable at 135 against some excellent comp, fighting 6-8 times a year, and winning the 147 title from one of the greatest welters ever. How many lightweights in history beat the Leonard that Duran beat in Montreal? How many lightweights go 15 with a prime Hagler? How many lightweights could beat Iran Barkley for the middleweight title? Yes 80+ fights into his career and 3-4 divisions above his best weight he started losing to the top guys, but he still periodically managed to produce great performances, and well into his 40s he was still competitive at a high level. There's a reason why he gets ranked in the top ten by virtually everyone.

[Brandish]

Duran was already thought to be an all time great even before he beat Leonard.
If you believe there's some kind of a conspiracy behind it then that's your business but in most people's eyes it makes you look like an ignorant idiot

.



based on what criteria..your opinion

[SickmyDuck]

It's obvious people think Duran is great only because the boxing establishment is so racist. They hate black people so much that they'll do anything to not have to admit that there was an all-black elite in that era. So they create a myth about Duran so they can have him on the list, even though there's no way he belong.

It's too bad Floyd Mayweather or Pernell Whitaker wasn't around at lightweight back then. Prime for prime, Duran gets destroyed.

crybaby ******

[TheGreatA]

.



based on what criteria..your opinion

Angelo Dundee seemed to think so... He calls Duran a great fighter at the end of this video.



http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...3266/index.htm

[wpink1]

Harry Greb beat 12 Hall of Famers, most of them multiple times, in addition to a galaxy of top contenders and uncrowned champions. He weighed 160, and beat five men who fought Jack Dempsey for the heavyweight title. Sam Langford, Benny Leonard, Willie Pep, Henry Armstrong, Mickey Walker, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and numerous others all beat more top fighters than Leonard did. You can't hammer Duran on the one hand, yet at the same time rank Leonard above all these guys effectively on the basis of four wins, all of which were close and/or controversial.



Yes I did, intentionally so, to prove my point that anyone's record can be picked apart if you include and exclude the right information, just as you did with Duran.

It's also worth bearing in mind that Duran was 71-1 before he ever faced one of the Fab Four. At the half-way point in his career, he'd already had more fights than Leonard, Hagler, Benitez and Hearns had in their entire careers. Make Hagler have 72 fights at middle and then move up to face a prime Mike Spinks or have Leonard and Benitez contest 72 fights at welter before moving to face a peak Hagler and see how they fare.

Yes, Duran's record above 135 is more patchy, but then so is Ray's above 147. PBF's record above 135 would be patchy too had he not managed to avoid most of his best peers. Two of the four wins you cite for Leonard being all-time top ten were against fellow welters, one a lightweight, and one a middleweight. One fight with Kalule, one fight with Hagler, and one fight with Lalonde reaped four titles, but didn't exactly demonstrate his greatness at higher weights.

Duran had beautiful skills, great balance and footwork, a very underrated defence, an excellent chin, KO power and went 72-1, which included being virtually unbeatable at 135 against some excellent comp, fighting 6-8 times a year, and winning the 147 title from one of the greatest welters ever. How many lightweights in history beat the Leonard that Duran beat in Montreal? How many lightweights go 15 with a prime Hagler? How many lightweights could beat Iran Barkley for the middleweight title? Yes 80+ fights into his career and 3-4 divisions above his best weight he started losing to the top guys, but he still periodically managed to produce great performances, and well into his 40s he was still competitive at a high level. There's a reason why he gets ranked in the top ten by virtually everyone.

McCoy..I clearly stated I have not seen these fighters, Greb, lansford, etc. therefore I will not rank them. The numbers you provide are staggering and very respected, I just did not want to rank these fighters based off of others rankings.

As for Leoanrds wins being close or controversial. Hmmm he stopped benetiz, and even though it was stoped in the last couple of seconds he had dropped him twice and was comfortably ahead. He destroyed hearns in EVERY ROUND THAT THEY HAD MEANINGFUL EXCHANGES, EVERY SINGLE ROUND..6-7 13-14, then it was stopped. Hearns did not even respond when the ref stepped in and he had to be carried out of the ring. Not controversial. Duran, he quit, and ray was easilly winning that fight, and was starting to plant when he landed his punches. The 7th and 8th rounds where rounds when Duran was confused could not land a punch, was getting hit with everything, and ray was pretty much about to either destory Duran or stop him, sort of like pac-man did DLH. Go back and look at the fight for yourself.

Yes the hagler fight was close, but how about looking at everything regarding this. Leoanrd was retired and out for 5 years with only one fight. Ray moved up directlly two weight classes, no warmup's. Leonard had no stamina after the 6th round, and still was able to use ring generlaship, to get him through the end of the fight. IMO Ray won 7-5. There was no way hagler won, you could call it a draw, but hagler did not win this fight.

You say Duran was 71-1 before facing the fab four..How many of these 72 fights where vs fighters with losing records or fighters with less than 20 fights, EVEN AFTER HE WAS A CHAMPION... At least 20. Here is the link. Check for yourself. This does not even count the horrible records with more fights than 20.

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php...boxer&pageID=1

Now look at Ray leonard's career, and you will see that he after his 13th fight, he only had one fight on his resume that was this weak.