Duran is not a top ten ATG

[wpink1]

Be consistent to all fighers including duran in your reviews

I never said it was.

wpink bringing them up as notable wins for Leonard only shows that there is not much depth to Leonard's record beyond his four great wins. Duran on the other had many solid wins over the years which you like to discard as 'not great'.

Duran spent a decade at the top and a decade after competing against the top. Leonard was on top for about 3 years because his prime was unfortunately cut short.



Duran was an all time great lightweight, Leonard was an all time great welterweight, Hearns was an all time great light middleweight, Hagler was an all time great middleweight. Head-to-head results shouldn't determine how we rank them in p4p lists.

Roberto Duran height 5'7, reach 66", prime weight 135 lbs
Ray Leonard height 5'10, reach 74", prime weight 147 lbs
Thomas Hearns height 6'1, reach 78", prime weight 147-154 lbs
Marvin Hagler height 5'10, reach 75", prime weight 160 lbs

The machine, you bring up good points. but leave out the valid and fair comparisons.

Here is my point.

Duran is a all time top fighter, he is a great fighter. He deserves kudos for what he accomplished, and that is dominating the lightweight division for a decade then beating Ray leoanrd in one the best welterweight fights of all time. He also went on and showed he was a top flight champion by besting Moore and Barkly at heavier divisions.

This to me deserves great great applause and earns him considerations along those that are considered all time.

Now what I have always said is that you have to go beyound this or his accomplishments and consider them VS others on as level of a playing field as you can when saying he is all time top 10. What many do is only consider what duran did good, and not take into considereation everything else, not make any excuses, and finally look at on a fair playing field the accomplishments that others have done then rank them.

Durans resume simply does not measure up when you rank his wins vs tip top fighters in his time. It does not. Marcel, Kyobashi, Buchanon all where very good fighters but they where not the best, the best where Leonard, hagler, Hearns, Benetiz, Duran. This is common fact.

Now Duran fans will return fire with saying well, they where bigger than he was. OK. Wasnt hagler bigger than both Leoanrd and Hearns? Wasn't, Dlh bigger than both Mayweather and Pac-man. Wasn't Hopkins bigger than Dlh, Trinidad. Was not forrest bigger than Mosley, and Wasnt Winky bigger than Mosley. However, we rate all of these fighters based on these fights, so why is Duran given a pass.

Duran fans will say well it was the 2nd part of his career. Hmmm So now we are saying 29 is old and past it. Based on that every fighter that made it to age 29 undefeated or had a great great career up until age 29, we should break their careers in half.

Duran fans simply ignore the many losses Duran had when he faced very good fighters. Dejesus beat him, Leonard, heanrs, hagler, benetiz..All before age 34. Duran fans also say well duran is greater than Dejesus since he beat him in the return fight, and the 3rd fight. But when Duran faced Ray, the same rational is not used..

Duran did dominate the lightweight like none else. However so did Hopkins. Do we rate Hopkins as a top 10, when he has not had the but whippings Duran got. He did lose two controversial fihgts to Taylor, but this is by no means the same as going 1-5 vs the the best in your era.

Name one other fighter on Durans resume that he beat that is considered a top 100 pound per pound all time. I can name 4 on Leonards. Duran did have a longer career, but once ray leoanrd fought his 10th fight his opposition got consistently better, duran had over 30 fights after he was a champion vs fighters with either losing records, very few fights, etc. Is this a valid reason to say he is better when he pretty much counted sparring sessions vs his professional record?

Duran moved up, but so did almost every other fighter, and they (most of them) did not have the beating that duran took.

That is my point..You have to be consistent on how you apply your reviews on all fighters, not just make excuses for every duran loss and ignore those who did everything Duran did and better.

[Kid McCoy]

WHAT EXACTLY HAS DURAN DONE, AND WHO HAS HE BEAT

What did anyone do and who did they beat?

Everybody's record can be picked apart the way you've done with Duran. Take your man Leonard. 40 fights in total, and only 30 or so in his prime, and he's a legend. Between beating Benitez and beating Hagler he managed precisely 8 fights. That's right, eight fights in his prime years. And four of those were against such luminaries as Dave Boy Green, Larry Bonds, Kevin Howard and Bruce Finch. Rather threadbare for a legend, wouldn't you say?

Won the welterweight title from Benitez, a guy who had prepared for the fight with his own unique training regime (in other words not much training) and was beaten easily by Hearns and got KO'd by Davey Moore, in a very close fight in which the unbeaten champ was questionably stopped by the ref with under ten seconds left in the final round. Benitez chased Ray for a rematch for a couple of years, to no avail. Then he was well beaten by the overrated blown up lightweight Duran in their first fight, and won the rematch when his bloated and under-prepared opponent retired unhurt to answer the call of nature.

Out-boxed by Hearns - the same Hearns who was both KO'd and out-pointed by Iran Barkley - for 14.5 rounds before pulling out the win. Great fight, but wafer thin close and again no rematch. Beat Kalule for the 154lb title, a guy who had had exactly one fight outside of Denmark and who had few noteworthy names on his resume. Then disappeared for a few years, before returning to win a hugely controversial SD over Hagler in conditions tailored to Ray's advantage, followed by another retirement, but again no rematch. That's not to mention the Lalonde farce, his legendary wars with the 50 y/o versions of Duran and Hearns, and the pitiful finales against Norris and Camacho.

So I ask you,

WHAT EXACTLY HAS LEONARD DONE, AND WHO HAS HE BEAT?

[wpink1]

response to ****** mccoy post...

What did anyone do and who did they beat?

Everybody's record can be picked apart the way you've done with Duran. Take your man Leonard. 40 fights in total, and only 30 or so in his prime, and he's a legend. Between beating Benitez and beating Hagler he managed precisely 8 fights. That's right, eight fights in his prime years. And four of those were against such luminaries as Dave Boy Green, Larry Bonds, Kevin Howard and Bruce Finch. Rather threadbare for a legend, wouldn't you say?

Won the welterweight title from Benitez, a guy who had prepared for the fight with his own unique training regime (in other words not much training) and was beaten easily by Hearns and got KO'd by Davey Moore, in a very close fight in which the unbeaten champ was questionably stopped by the ref with under ten seconds left in the final round. Benitez chased Ray for a rematch for a couple of years, to no avail. Then he was well beaten by the overrated blown up lightweight Duran in their first fight, and won the rematch when his bloated and under-prepared opponent retired unhurt to answer the call of nature.

Out-boxed by Hearns - the same Hearns who was both KO'd and out-pointed by Iran Barkley - for 14.5 rounds before pulling out the win. Great fight, but wafer thin close and again no rematch. Beat Kalule for the 154lb title, a guy who had had exactly one fight outside of Denmark and who had few noteworthy names on his resume. Then disappeared for a few years, before returning to win a hugely controversial SD over Hagler in conditions tailored to Ray's advantage, followed by another retirement, but again no rematch. That's not to mention the Lalonde farce, his legendary wars with the 50 y/o versions of Duran and Hearns, and the pitiful finales against Norris and Camacho.

So I ask you,

WHAT EXACTLY HAS LEONARD DONE, AND WHO HAS HE BEAT?

Outside of Sugar Ray Robinson..Leoanrd probably beat more top fightere all time than anyone else. Ali beat some too. The difference is that Robinson and Ali did have long reigns.? Guess what, they are ranked higher on every list including mine than Ray is.

Hmmm Quality plus quantity = top 1o all time.

Now your point abouit leonard is fair.

Leoanrd did not have a long career at all. His career was cut short due to retinal injury that robbed the best physical years from us. However, in that time span, he did win 5 titles which is equal to or more than Duran did, and he beat 4 fighters..that hmmmmm all beat duran before the age of 34, and he did too.

Notice I never brinig into account cuevas, leoanrd duran 3, or other fights at the end of durans career because based on how we generally rate others fighters, these fights are not held against them, so they should not be held against duran either. Hmmm leoanrd as well.

So you do have a point that Ray's career was short, but he had much more quality than duran did in 120 fights. If your still confused, then you name the Haglers, hearns, Benetiz, Durans, level of fighters that Duran beat. I can name one...Leonard.

Now because ray did not have quantiity, he is not up there with those that have both in my book.

Duran did not have both at least his quality portion does not measure up to leonard, ali's, or Robinsons. His quantity does, but if quantity is the only measuring stick then there are many many fighters we would have to rank up there.

One more question, Mccoy...You name 1 fighter who has beaten..Not fought, but has beaten 4 fighters that are in a widly respected person such as Bert Sugar's, the rings, Espn's etc..poll. That is why Leonard is up there ini top all time pound per pound rankings..

Ohh before I forget. Your versions of thigs seems a bit inaccurate.

Lets see.. Benetiz trained better for this fight with leonard than any other ever. His own words to Cossell before the fight. Benetiz at the time was 38-0-1 and hmmm when the referee stopped the fight ( i agree no reason to stop the fight) ray was well ahead on every card. You also say Benetiz wanted a rematch..So I guess ray should have fought him again instead of Duran or Hearns...Hmmm

Lets see, Hearns 1st fight. You say hearns was outboxing Leonard for 14.5 rounds.....Hmmm did you rememeber rounds 6,7 13,14. Was not hearns about to be stopped in each of those rounds. yes Leoanrd was out boxed by the Taller Hearns who had a reach advantage on hearns of 4 inches and height advantage of 3 inches. Funny you left this part out of your review. Maybe like I said before fair and honest comparisons is not your goal. Leonard realized he could not out box hearns due to the tremendous size advantages of hearns and relegated to slugging. That age old you fight a boxer, you box a fighter...Leoanrd used it, and to most experts this is a unique ability that 99.9% of fighters can not pull off, let alone vs a top figher like hearns.

Your points of Kalule and Lalond need no defense. I agree about lalond, but you still leave out two things. That Ray was still a mostly inactive fighter, and that he was 21 pounds above his normal weight, @ the 168 limit, and 28 pounds at 175. So yess it was a travesty in the lalond agreement but ray still came up quit a bit.

Beating the old versions or getting a controversial draw, to me these fights don't show the peak versions of any of the three, so I dont put much value in leoanrd winning 11 out of 12 rounds vs that duran, or the draw that he did not deserve (but he was not far from it) vs hearns.

Seems to me you leave out quit a bit....as for Ray vs Duran. He beats duran 95 times out of 100 if he simply boxes..

[The Noose]

And so are fighters that many of these sports writers never even seen with their own eyes. Greb, Pep, and some others.... Many simple give some fighters respect cause other people do.

Now for your post....Since when is a fighter given credit as being a all time top fighter for simply giving another fighter trouble. Fact is he lost to Hagler.

Yes he beat Leonard. Funny how you all give him credit for beating dejeuse the 2nd and third fights, and do not discuss the 1st fight...THEN... you all compleltly about face and give Duran credit for the 1st leonard fight, and disregard the 2nd and 3td leoanrd fight... Wow. Now I dont put too much credibility into the 3rd Leonard and Duran fight myself, but to hear Duran fans put it, there was only one duran -Leonard fight.

Beating Pamilino and Moore was nothing but a win over two b+ fighters. Moore only had 12 fights total at the time. Pamino had several losses including to andy price...Are we suggesting Price is a all time great.

.

So u dont consider him top 10 ATG? Thats fine, but whether or not these boxing writers rate fighters they have never seen fight has nothing to do with me. I dont know the criteria they use to back up their arguement that forms their lists. But many of them have seen more footage of these fighters than any of us if they have access to the video archives and have spoken to people that did see people like Pep fight. But then maybe that makes the witnesses biased, exaggerating the fighters performances of their day.
There is no easy way to judge who is best, and these lists are just opinions.

I personally would rate Durans performance against Hagler very highly because he was expected to get KO'd. And his ring smarts and intelligence where really evident compared to so many other fighters who have faced Hagler. It is true people make excuses about Durans losses to Leonard, Dejesus, Benitez etc, but the flip side to ignoring his losses is to ignore the fact that after LW he was a inconsistant fighter, who some times had great fire and focus, and other times seem lethargic and bored. Whether or not that was due to his opponents game is a matter of opinion. IMO he clearly wasnt the same after LW, and therefore his big wins at WW and MW are made more remarkable.

When Duran fought Hagler, Hearns, Benitez and Leonard they not only were naturally bigger men, and had fought at higher weights than him, but were also younger, and had many less fights. They are also considered some of best figters to have ever lived.

[KostyaTszyu44]

and his no mas was a really, really, special loss as well



duran did not beat ray leonard convincgly, hence the call for an immediate rematch and the true duran came to play that night in the greates show of cowardice ever





davey moore was 11-0 and had fought a washed up benitez, and kalube it happens all the time a young fighter goes after old names. davey moore is not in the hof for a reason



yeah and they would have been on crack...you have presented no evidence of duran's greatness besides leoanrd and davey moore, is that the sum total of his career going 1-2 against leoanrd and 1-0 against moore, what about his losses do they escape your attention





1.Sugar Ray Robinson
2.Henry Armstrong
3.Muhammad Ali
4.Sugar Ray Leoanrd
5.Roy JOnes Jr
6.Floyd Mayweather Jr
7.Marvin Hagler
8.Bernard Hopkins
9.Pernell Whitaker
10.Joe Louis
11. James Toney
12. Larry Homes
13. Lennox Lewis
14. Tommy Hearns
15. Evander Holyfield
16. Aaron Pryor
17. Alexis Arguello
18. Julio Caesar chavez
19. Ricardo Lopez
20. Jack Johnson
21. Mike Tyson
22. benny leoanrd
23. willie pep
24. George Foreman
25. Archie Moore
26. Ezzard Charles
27. Bob Foster
28. Carlos Monzon
29. Harry Greb
30. sandy sadler
31. Roberto Duran
32. Felix Trinidad
33. Kid gavlan

never post here again, that is a terrible p4p list, and you are the only idiot i know who has called duran a coward!!!??? he didnt quit cos he was scared he quit because leonard didnt want to fight with him

how could you rank RJJ over guys like duran, saddler, pryor, monzon, charles, louis...?

and i love toney and mayweather, but they are much too high on that list

[TheGreatA]

The machine, you bring up good points. but leave out the valid and fair comparisons.

Here is my point.

Duran is a all time top fighter, he is a great fighter. He deserves kudos for what he accomplished, and that is dominating the lightweight division for a decade then beating Ray leoanrd in one the best welterweight fights of all time. He also went on and showed he was a top flight champion by besting Moore and Barkly at heavier divisions.

This to me deserves great great applause and earns him considerations along those that are considered all time.

Now what I have always said is that you have to go beyound this or his accomplishments and consider them VS others on as level of a playing field as you can when saying he is all time top 10. What many do is only consider what duran did good, and not take into considereation everything else, not make any excuses, and finally look at on a fair playing field the accomplishments that others have done then rank them.

Durans resume simply does not measure up when you rank his wins vs tip top fighters in his time. It does not. Marcel, Kyobashi, Buchanon all where very good fighters but they where not the best, the best where Leonard, hagler, Hearns, Benetiz, Duran. This is common fact.

Now Duran fans will return fire with saying well, they where bigger than he was. OK. Wasnt hagler bigger than both Leoanrd and Hearns? Wasn't, Dlh bigger than both Mayweather and Pac-man. Wasn't Hopkins bigger than Dlh, Trinidad. Was not forrest bigger than Mosley, and Wasnt Winky bigger than Mosley. However, we rate all of these fighters based on these fights, so why is Duran given a pass.

Hagler wasn't really that much bigger than Leonard and Hearns. Both were taller than him and Hearns had a reach advantage over Hagler.

Hearns is given a lot of credit for his three round brawl against Hagler and Leonard is obviously given a ton for winning a decision, but few ever bring up that Duran was actually ahead on points against Hagler after 12 rounds and made him look very bad. Leonard actually credited Duran for giving him the gameplan on how to beat Hagler.

Forrest wasn't thought to be in Mosley's class who was at that time rated number 1 p4p by many. Mosley isn't really discredited for the Wright losses, he is actually often given credit for being the only man to step up and fight him when no one else would.

DLH was bigger than both but he was also past his prime. Leonard, Hearns, Benitez and Hagler were all at their peak when they fought Duran. Imagine a 29 year old Duran against 34 year old Leonard, Hearns, Benitez and Hagler, he could have possibly beaten all of them.

Duran fans will say well it was the 2nd part of his career. Hmmm So now we are saying 29 is old and past it. Based on that every fighter that made it to age 29 undefeated or had a great great career up until age 29, we should break their careers in half.

Fighters age differently. Leonard and Hearns were both also past their best in their late 20's/early 30's, not to mention Benitez who was never the same at age 24.

I don't think that Duran was past his prime at 29 against Leonard, but I do believe that quitting against Leonard had an obvious mental effect on Duran which is why he performed so poorly in the fights that he had afterwards.

Duran fans simply ignore the many losses Duran had when he faced very good fighters. Dejesus beat him, Leonard, heanrs, hagler, benetiz..All before age 34. Duran fans also say well duran is greater than Dejesus since he beat him in the return fight, and the 3rd fight. But when Duran faced Ray, the same rational is not used..

The losses shouldn't be ignored, but he also shouldn't be discredited for fighting the best.

The problem with the Duran-Leonard trilogy is that the third fight happened when both were long past their prime.

Duran did dominate the lightweight like none else. However so did Hopkins. Do we rate Hopkins as a top 10, when he has not had the but whippings Duran got. He did lose two controversial fihgts to Taylor, but this is by no means the same as going 1-5 vs the the best in your era.

The thread starter rates Hopkins as a top 10 ATG.

Duran's opponents at LW weren't the greatest but Hopkins' opponents at MW were weak. Trinidad was Hopkins' only really good win at that weight.

Duran moved up, but so did almost every other fighter, and they (most of them) did not have the beating that duran took.

Duran had already fought at 130, 135 and 147 (not counting the weights he fought as a teenager) before he started to take those beatings.

Hagler never moved up, Leonard moved up to 154 and 160 pounds, Benitez moved up from 140 (a weight he fought at when he was 17 years old) to 147 and 154, Hearns with his frame was able to compete at 160 and even 175.

They did have losses at those weights, bad losses.

34 year old Leonard was obviously past it when he fought Norris at 154, but Hearns 26 years old against Hagler and 29 years old against Barkley was stopped against both in three rounds. Benitez lost badly to Mustafa Hamsho at 160 and was never the same after, losing numerous fights to boxers who were not in his class.

[Del Coqui]

Great fighterbut highly overrated. like oscar he lost to most of the ATG's he faced

went 1-5 agianst the fab five

1. leonard- was 1-2 qon a close split decision in the first fight quit in embarrassing fashion in the rematch

2. Hagler--lost a wide UD

3. Benitez--lost a wide UD

4. Hearns-- brutal ko

was 12-7 in championship fights, only amassed 12 title defenses out of 100 + fights.

at the time he was fighting he was not considered the best, so how can people now want to turn around and say he had a better career then ray and tommy when he didn't do much after beating leaonard the first time at the age of 29

Add Estebita de Jesus to that list.... and yes, he is a bit over rated. When it comes to ATG and P4P lists, you see a lot of BS, lot of fighters who shouldn't be there and see they're missing others, its all about publicists $.

[wpink1]

Hagler wasn't really that much bigger than Leonard and Hearns. Both were taller than him and Hearns had a reach advantage over Hagler.

Hearns is given a lot of credit for his three round brawl against Hagler and Leonard is obviously given a ton for winning a decision, but few ever bring up that Duran was actually ahead on points against Hagler after 12 rounds and made him look very bad. Leonard actually credited Duran for giving him the gameplan on how to beat Hagler.

Forrest wasn't thought to be in Mosley's class who was at that time rated number 1 p4p by many. Mosley isn't really discredited for the Wright losses, he is actually often given credit for being the only man to step up and fight him when no one else would.

DLH was bigger than both but he was also past his prime. Leonard, Hearns, Benitez and Hagler were all at their peak when they fought Duran. Imagine a 29 year old Duran against 34 year old Leonard, Hearns, Benitez and Hagler, he could have possibly beaten all of them.



Fighters age differently. Leonard and Hearns were both also past their best in their late 20's/early 30's, not to mention Benitez who was never the same at age 24.

I don't think that Duran was past his prime at 29 against Leonard, but I do believe that quitting against Leonard had an obvious mental effect on Duran which is why he performed so poorly in the fights that he had afterwards.



The losses shouldn't be ignored, but he also shouldn't be discredited for fighting the best.

The problem with the Duran-Leonard trilogy is that the third fight happened when both were long past their prime.



The thread starter rates Hopkins as a top 10 ATG.

Duran's opponents at LW weren't the greatest but Hopkins' opponents at MW were weak. Trinidad was Hopkins' only really good win at that weight.



Duran had already fought at 130, 135 and 147 (not counting the weights he fought as a teenager) before he started to take those beatings.

Hagler never moved up, Leonard moved up to 154 and 160 pounds, Benitez moved up from 140 (a weight he fought at when he was 17 years old) to 147 and 154, Hearns with his frame was able to compete at 160 and even 175.

They did have losses at those weights, bad losses.

34 year old Leonard was obviously past it when he fought Norris at 154, but Hearns 26 years old against Hagler and 29 years old against Barkley was stopped against both in three rounds. Benitez lost badly to Mustafa Hamsho at 160 and was never the same after, losing numerous fights to boxers who were not in his class.

The machine,,,,very very good post. I can go with most of this, other than ray did move up to 168.

I personally think Duran is all time top fighter. I have always said so. However, I dont think he deserves to be rated ahead of Jones, Leonard, Mayweather..well yes currently above mayweather, but if Mayweather fights Pac-man then Margertio then you have to move Mayweather up there. A lot of hopes on Mayweather to do what is right. Duran, Leoanrd, etc..would have made these fights.

Duran to me the night he faced Leoanrd in montreal would have beaten almost anyone that lives at welter who fought him toe to toe, including hearns. That was the best fight I actually even saw Leoanrd fight. Leonard took and gave back better in that fight, sustainied with speed power, bad intentions with Duran who did the same for 15 rounds. I am fine with duran winning that decision. It was a great great great fight. IMO better in action than the hearns fight, way better than either the benetiz or Hagler fight.

I personally think duran outgrew the weights where his style could be as dominant. At lightweight he beats Hagler, hearns probably. Leonard IMO beats Duran if he boxes...Thus it comes down to styles. Duran was a beast.

The problem is Duran did not prove it with Wins vs fighters on the same level that leoanrd did. Also, Duran dominated at lightweight vs 30-40 sparring level fighters.

The Machine since you have some intelligence, let me ask you this. Is it fair to rank duran as a all time top 5 when he beat buchanon and dejesus 2 out of 3, and then split with ray, got beaten by hearns, hagler, benitez.and you can still give him credit for moore and barkely. Is it fair to rank him above Roy, who may not have been the crowd favorite or engaged all brutal slugfest, but he did easily beat hopkins and Toney, then dominated 23 champions (18 of them world champions) all the way up to aheavyweight title, not losing (except for the dq to griffith that a he brutally avenges in a one round ko). Roy did not lose a valid fight til age 35 or 36.

We can go on and on...My point is Duran is great, but not IMO greatr than other fighters who moved up and beat their opposition and fought better opposition day in day out that they won, vs Duran.

[Brandish]

never post here again, that is a terrible p4p list

,

so when someone counters your duran fantasies you tell them not to post

and you are the only idiot i know who has called duran a coward!!!???

you ever hear of any ATG fighter quitting like that did ray, ali, mayweather, jones, hopkins, toney, hagler hearns, leonard quit like that

he didnt quit cos he was scared he quit because leonard didnt want to fight with him

he quit because ray was kicking his ass and his pride couldn't take it. why didn't duran make adjustments and become more aggressive, you just don't quit like that. duran never lived that defeat down and was never the same fighter after ray beat him in the rematch

how could you rank RJJ over guys like duran, saddler, pryor, monzon, charles, louis...?

you don't know boxing if you think roy is beneath a fighter like duran...go do some homework and tell me who had more title defenses, won more championshiop fights, and dominated more weight classes

and i love toney and mayweather, but they are much too high on that list

once again go do your homework..I rank toney and floyd high based on their accomplsihments not on the herd mentality seen around here. you only seem interested in hyping duran anyway as you haven't presented any proof of him being ranked top ten.

after wpwink's post I could even see duran as top 20-25 go figure the guy who is fair and objective presents a better case for duran then his sychphant fanboys

[Brandish]

We can go on and on...My point is Duran is great, but not IMO greatr than other fighters who moved up and beat their opposition and fought better opposition day in day out that they won, vs Duran.

so wink where would you rank duran, I am leaning towards top20-25 top 30 may have been too low now that I look at my list. he did win four titles in four weight classes and he was dominant at 135.