Duran is not a top ten ATG

[Brandish]

Harry Greb beat 12 Hall of Famers, most of them multiple times, in addition to a galaxy of top contenders and uncrowned champions. He weighed 160, and beat five men who fought Jack Dempsey for the heavyweight title. Sam Langford, Benny Leonard, Willie Pep, Henry Armstrong, Mickey Walker, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and numerous others all beat more top fighters than Leonard did. You can't hammer Duran on the one hand, yet at the same time rank Leonard above all these guys effectively on the basis of four wins, all of which were close and/or controversial.

how many wins did duran produce against the best of his generation, if you want to count the littany of bums duran faced throughout his career as a better hallmark of greatness then beating the best fighters of your generation then you show your bias and fradulent analysis to be what it is.

by the way are you arguing that duran is better then harry greb, sam langford, ezszard charles, archiemoore, and benny leoanrd, what about willie pep, is duran based on his resume greater then these fighters. duran couldn't even measure up to leaonrd in his generation what hope does he have to measure up to fighters who accomplished more.

Yes I did, intentionally so, to prove my point that anyone's record can be picked apart if you include and exclude the right information, just as you did with Duran.

when you declare a fighter top5 or top ten atg there record has to be scrutinized wins and losses and caliber of opposition have to be taken into account. accomplishments in the ring have to be taken into account, not just one victory.

It's also worth bearing in mind that Duran was 71-1 before he ever faced one of the Fab Four. At the half-way point in his career, he'd already had more fights than Leonard, Hagler, Benitez and Hearns had in their entire careers.

what a weak argument, this is where duran nuthuggers get picked apart/ 70% of the fighters he fought to get to 72-1 were bums. any fighter can rack up victories against sub-standard opposition and proclaim themselves great just look at julio caesar chavez he was 45-0 fighting guys 0-1, same **** goes for duran. duran only had 30 meanigful fights in his entire career and he was 15-7 in championship fights for a reason.

Make Hagler have 72 fights at middle and then move up to face a prime Mike Spinks or have Leonard and Benitez contest 72 fights at welter before moving to face a peak Hagler and see how they fare.

hagler's opposition was much better then duran's he wasn't fighting guys 0-9 and 1-1 after a certain amount of time in his career, duran consistently fought weak opposition throughout his career. it's called padding a record

Yes, Duran's record above 135 is more patchy, but then so is Ray's above 147. PBF's record above 135 would be patchy too had he not managed to avoid most of his best peers. Two of the four wins you cite for Leonard being all-time top ten were against fellow welters, one a lightweight, and one a middleweight. One fight with Kalule, one fight with Hagler, and one fight with Lalonde reaped four titles, but didn't exactly demonstrate his greatness at higher weights.

please list these peers e miracoulsy ducked. and as far as leoanrd went he demonstrated a much higher skill set then duran hence the 5-1 mark against the greatest fighters of his era and duran's 1-5 mark. only an idiot would try and make duran seem better when it's clear as day he wasn't

Duran had beautiful skills, great balance and footwork, a very underrated defence, an excellent chin, KO power and went 72-1,

that 72-1 was a padded record, we have gone over this already, floyd and leaonard fought consistently tough world class fights while duran was spotty at best when it cames to winning championship fights. and duran's skill set is no match for floyd's and leoanrd's any good boxer could beat duran.

which included being virtually unbeatable at 135 against some excellent comp, fighting 6-8 times a year, and winning the 147 title from one of the greatest welters ever.

he was not unbeatable at `135 he lost to dejesus remember. so answer this question of the 71 fights at 135 how many would you label excellent comp or worthy of a top 5 atg ranking

How many lightweights in history beat the Leonard that Duran beat in Montreal? How many lightweights go 15 with a prime Hagler? How many lightweights could beat Iran Barkley for the middleweight title? Yes 80+ fights into his career and 3-4 divisions above his best weight he started losing to the top guys, but he still periodically managed to produce great performances, and well into his 40s he was still competitive at a high level. There's a reason why he gets ranked in the top ten by virtually everyone.

was floyd mayweather jr a jr.lightweight when he faced oscar de la hoya at 154.

[The Noose]

Badnewz... As for Duran vs mayweather and Whitacker at lightweight. IMO Whitacker would have gotten beaten, but Mayweather is a lot tougher than many seem to thnk, and at lightweight he was everybit as good as Leoanrd pound per pound. Look at how he destroyed Corrales who was looked at the lightweight version of tommy hearns. Now styles makes fights, and it was not Leonards size, power, etc that beat Duran. What it was was his speed, his mobility, counter punching etc. IMO Mayweather could not beat Leoanrd because of size and power and they both had mostly the same package except for 2 very important tools..

One mayweather was better defensivly, and better inside defensively. Thus nullifying the great inside work Duran does.

Two. mayweather is faster with his single one punch counter. Ray leoanrd was faster with combinations. Mayweather one punch counter was more precise, faster, accurate and at lightweight very strong.

The package mayweather possessed,,hmmm let me say it like this, if Duran was frusterated in the 2nd leoanrd fight, he would commit suicide vs mayweather. As the style leonard used is the maywether blueprint for success. Styles makes fights,, and all we can go on from Duran is what he showed vs leoanrd WHEN LEONARD DECIDED TO BOX HIM... and that was he was not able to cope.

If Hearns was a LW i think his style would give Floyd hell, , just as it did Leonard. He wouldnt just follow Floyd around like Corrales did .But i dont think Floyd could take the chances Leonard did to stop Hearns. Floyd is defence first.

Same with Duran vs Floyd. Leonard in the rematch caught him with very hard combinations as Duran came forward, Floyd would cover up and move away, prefering to keep the fight at distance. I dont think his single shots would be enough to catch Duran coming in.

[Brandish]

If Hearns was a LW i think his style would give Floyd hell, , just as it did Leonard. He wouldnt just follow Floyd around like Corrales did .But i dont think Floyd could take the chances Leonard did to stop Hearns. Floyd is defence first.

Same with Duran vs Floyd. Leonard in the rematch caught him with very hard combinations as Duran came forward, Floyd would cover up and move away, prefering to keep the fight at distance. I dont think his single shots would be enough to catch Duran coming in.

floyd fought in combination from 130-140. the only fight at the lower weight where he didn't through in combination was the castillo fights and that was due to the size disparity between castillo and floyd. floyd would box circles around duran at 135 anyone who watched both fighters knows this. the biased ones wilkl never acknowledge this.

[Kid McCoy]

McCoy..I clearly stated I have not seen these fighters, Greb, lansford, etc. therefore I will not rank them. The numbers you provide are staggering and very respected, I just did not want to rank these fighters based off of others rankings.

Fair enough, we obviously rate fighters in different ways.

As for Leoanrds wins being close or controversial. Hmmm he stopped benetiz, and even though it was stoped in the last couple of seconds he had dropped him twice and was comfortably ahead. He destroyed hearns in EVERY ROUND THAT THEY HAD MEANINGFUL EXCHANGES, EVERY SINGLE ROUND..6-7 13-14, then it was stopped. Hearns did not even respond when the ref stepped in and he had to be carried out of the ring. Not controversial. Duran, he quit, and ray was easilly winning that fight, and was starting to plant when he landed his punches. The 7th and 8th rounds where rounds when Duran was confused could not land a punch, was getting hit with everything, and ray was pretty much about to either destory Duran or stop him, sort of like pac-man did DLH. Go back and look at the fight for yourself.

The Benitez was very close and cagey, and hard to score. I thought Ray had the edge because his offense was superior, but I don't agree that he was "comfortably ahead". And again, an unbeaten champ deserves more than to get stopped on his feet with 10 seconds to go, especially in such a chess match of a fight. So yes, controversial, and no rematch to settle the controversy.

I agree that when Ray took the fight to Hearns he had the better of it, but you only cite four rounds out of the fourteen. For much of the fight Hearns was out-boxing him, hence him being well ahead on the cards by the 14th. And I never said the Hearns stoppage was controversial. I agree he had nothing left.

I've seen the Duran rematch several times, and never have I seen where Duran looks like he's about to get stopped. Yes Ray was winning, but not as comfortably as you say. Well done to Ray for getting the W, but not the kind of win that puts him into the top 5 ahead of the guys I listed.

Yes the hagler fight was close, but how about looking at everything regarding this. Leoanrd was retired and out for 5 years with only one fight. Ray moved up directlly two weight classes, no warmup's. Leonard had no stamina after the 6th round, and still was able to use ring generlaship, to get him through the end of the fight. IMO Ray won 7-5. There was no way hagler won, you could call it a draw, but hagler did not win this fight.

I don't have a problem with those who think Ray won, as it was close, although I had Hagler winning, 6-5-1 if I remember rightly, but you cannot deny that the decision was very controversial, and is still disputed today. Harry Gibbs, who was originally slated to be one of the judges, said a few days later that he thought Hagler won it. And again, no rematch to settle the controversy.

You say Duran was 71-1 before facing the fab four..How many of these 72 fights where vs fighters with losing records or fighters with less than 20 fights, EVEN AFTER HE WAS A CHAMPION... At least 20. Here is the link. Check for yourself. This does not even count the horrible records with more fights than 20.

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php...boxer&pageID=1

Now look at Ray leonard's career, and you will see that he after his 13th fight, he only had one fight on his resume that was this weak.

Boxrec is a wonderful tool, but unfortunately many of its records are notoriously incomplete, especially for fighters from outside of the US. Note the disclaimer at the bottom of their website, which states that "this data may be incomplete and/or inaccurate".

Look at the Boxrec records of scores of great old-timers, especially Latin Americans like Monzon, Jofre, Arguello, Chavez and they all have a lot of guys with 0-1-1 type resumes. Either they were all padding their records with novices, or Boxrec's records are highly incomplete. I favour the latter.

[TheGreatA]

Boxrec is a wonderful tool, but unfortunately many of its records are notoriously incomplete, especially for fighters from outside of the US. Note the disclaimer at the bottom of their website, which states that "this data may be incomplete and/or inaccurate".

Look at the Boxrec records of scores of great old-timers, especially Latin Americans like Monzon, Jofre, Arguello, Chavez and they all have a lot of guys with 0-1-1 type resumes. Either they were all padding their records with novices, or Boxrec's records are highly incomplete. I favour the latter.

You may have a case with that. For example Adalberto Vanegas, one of Duran's opponents who supposedly had only two fights, once defeated Emiliano Villa who was a good fighter and a top contender. I don't think a boxer with only two or three fights could've done that.

Another Duran opponent Alvaro Rojas whose record is reported to be 3-5, went 14 tough rounds with lightweight champion Guts Ishimatsu and beat Clemente Sanchez who was a world featherweight champion.

[Brandish]

You may have a case with that. For example Adalberto Vanegas, one of Duran's opponents who supposedly had only two fights, once defeated Emiliano Villa who was a good fighter and a top contender. I don't think a boxer with only two or three fights could've done that.

Another Duran opponent Alvaro Rojas whose record is reported to be 3-5, went 14 tough rounds with lightweight champion Guts Ishimatsu and beat Clemente Sanchez who was a world featherweight champion.

talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel

ok i'll give you those 5 what about the other 65

quality always beats quantity

[Tony Jones]

If there was ever a born fighter it was Duran. The No Mas incident detracts of course but his wins over Moore and Barley compensate to a degree. One of my favoueite boxers ever for sure.

[wpink1]

You may have a case with that. For example Adalberto Vanegas, one of Duran's opponents who supposedly had only two fights, once defeated Emiliano Villa who was a good fighter and a top contender. I don't think a boxer with only two or three fights could've done that.

Another Duran opponent Alvaro Rojas whose record is reported to be 3-5, went 14 tough rounds with lightweight champion Guts Ishimatsu and beat Clemente Sanchez who was a world featherweight champion.

Some of the records may be incomplete but it tells the story about the fighter. Also if a fighter has at any point in their career a record of 0-3, o 10-4, or similar records, Box rec could be only capturing 20% of their record, the fighter is still not a good quality fighter.

[Brandish]

The package mayweather possessed,,hmmm let me say it like this, if Duran was frusterated in the 2nd leoanrd fight, he would commit suicide vs mayweather. As the style leonard used is the maywether blueprint for success. Styles makes fights,, and all we can go on from Duran is what he showed vs leoanrd WHEN LEONARD DECIDED TO BOX HIM... and that was he was not able to cope.

great analogy couldn't of said it better myself

Roy jones IMO and apparantley Leonard's opinion too as he was trying to get him to sign with his promtional company, and is on record saying that if Jones had been around when they where boxing, Jones would probably have beaten all of them, because of his speed, reach, power, and unorthodox very awkard style.... Roy of the 90's was simply to fast, strong, awkward. No he never developed a jab, but his speed and split second counters and lead left hooks was his jab, as a jab like leonard used is used to measure your opponents and set them up for your right hand and left hook. Well roy would take about 2 minutes usually to time his opponents and know what they would do, then he would use precise split second counters to literally leave his opposition punchless.

if roy had retired after the first tarver fight he would have gone down as top 3 atg instead of top 5. he gets no credit from boxing writers who want to place him in the top 30.

[Brandish]

If there was ever a born fighter it was Duran. The No Mas incident detracts of course but his wins over Moore and Barley compensate to a degree. One of my favoueite boxers ever for sure.

since he is your fav where would you rank him all time