Is Calzaghe the Greatest of All Time?

[Wiley Hyena]

That's why it is important not to just look at "records." You should be watching the fighter and how that fighter does against so and so. Did he struggle in the fight...how many rounds did he struggle...what was he able to overcome...how good was his opponent...had that opponent lost before, and if so, how many times...as well as how much wear and tear does that opponent have- was he past his prime, was he shot, had he been knocked out?

So much to look into.

Like take Ali: I would give him bonus points for being able to comeback from the layoff where he was noticeably not the same fighter physically...but he was still strong enough mentally, which could really have made him vulnerable knowing he wasn't at his best anymore...and he still won against good opposition.

For Marciano: I'm not big on his opponents and they weren't 200+ pound HWs that some want you to believe...they were right around his weight actually and were past their prime.

What I do like about him was that he came in every fight in tip-top shape and never once slacked off. And he knew when to get out.



I would like to hear your arguments for Joe and Rocky being in the top 10...maybe I'm missing something...convince me

Surely, you have consider the whole picture. Bert Sugar's list contains alot of great names, but there's alot to debate there. There are many weaknesses with his list of ATGs. He's got Dempsey and Duran up there where they need to be. But, Jeffries isn't even in the list. ?? Did I miss it? Tszyu isn't in the list. That's a mistake.

[Benny Leonard]

Surely, you have consider the whole picture. Bert Sugar's list contains alot of great names, but there's alot to debate there. There are many weaknesses with his list of ATGs. He's got Dempsey and Duran up there where they need to be. But, Jeffries isn't even in the list. ?? Did I miss it? Tszyu isn't in the list. That's a mistake.

I think so too. Bert Sugar isn't the most accurate of people when it comes to anything boxing.

I also think he puts Rocky there so not to piss people off. He didn't seem to be enthusiastic about Rocky on Ringside.

Personally, if you think about Rocky as an under 200 pound fighter going up against other under 200 pound fighters, I can make a case for it. But for me, to put him up there with some of the other HWs that were over 200 pounds or had fought 200 pound "decent" fighters, I dont' think so.


I'm not sure how old the list is; it didn't say. I don't see Floyd on there either unless I missed him.

I'll see if there is an updated list.

[Wiley Hyena]

First of all it's extremely difficult to rank the ATGs numerically. We can have a sense of who should be at the top. Yes, we can all assume Robinson, Louis, and Ali are up there. After that things start to get muddled. Many of the old greats are up there more out of respect than because we believe they would beat so and so....

A more valid ranking of the ATGs probably should begin with an analysis of the dominant champions in each weight class. And/Or, as I did in the thread starter, clump them in tiers.

Numerical rankings are impossibly debatable. How would anybody ever know whether or not Haggler or Duran could have knocked off Robinson? Yet, we all concede that Robinson is top three ATG because of a certain mythic quality that hangs in the air when Robinson is considered.

[Fenom]

Is Calzaghe the Greatest of All Time? There are a number threads now dancing around this question. So let's just get to it.

PRO: Statistically, only Rocky Marciano has a better undefeated championship record than Calzaghe. Furthermore, Calzaghe has the best championship record of any boxer in 45 years (46-0 and no draws). If you go STRICTLY BY STATISTICS, then the argument can be made that Joe Calzaghe is the greatest boxer of all time (If you're in the top two or three statistically, then THE DEBATE IS AUTOMATICALLY LEGITIMATE). Furthermore, Cal defeated two solid ATGs (Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones, Jr.) while in his mid 30s and a cavalcade of hall of famers, champions, and former belt holders during one of the longest uninterrupted championship runs in boxing history. Stylistically, Calzaghe had a completely unique, almost freakishly athletic, style. NOBODY has ever been able to figure it out. He's the only major boxer I know of that is ambidextrous (both right and left handed) and this commonly results in a state of confusion that hampers the effectiveness and confidence of his opponents. Calzaghe is able to mix flurries of disruptive swat-like punches with zipping power shots to the head and body which leave his opponents dazed and confused. While Calzaghe has a number of early KOs/TKOs, the prescription most common in Calzaghe fights lay with the enormous number of punches (commonly reaching 1000 per fight) that Calzaghe is able to land which commonly results in a level of brutality that is at once surprising to the spectator and convincing to the opponent. Furthermore, Calzaghe's defense is as good as anybody that ever put on gloves. Few in history have been as elusive as Calzaghe and also possessed of a granite chin. Ali comes to mind, but not many others. Roy Jones, Jr., for example, was marvelously elusive in his prime but was burdened by a brittle chin. Moreover, few in history have been able to elude so effectively while attacking with both hands. Calzaghe's mastery of this form of attack and defense is unique.

CON: Put statistics aside and visually compare Calzaghe to Sugar Ray Robinson, Joe Louis, and Muhammad Ali (boxing's "Holy Trinity"). It doesn't seem that Calzaghe's unorthodox style can equate to the masterful technique combined with power of Robinson or Louis, nor does it possess the sheer beauty of Ali in action. While the championship records of Robinson, Louis, and Ali contain losses, those fighters fought a bevy of hall of famers and ATGs and their exploits are truly legendary and survive the test of time. Putting statistics aside it's hard to place Calzaghe (or Marciano) ahead of Robinson, Louis, and Ali. It's easier to see Joe Calzaghe in the second tier of ATGs (boxing "Heaven") with fighters whose championship reigns were undisputable according to their records, length of championship reign, number of titles won, and/or exceptional achievement. Boxing "Heaven" includes, but is not limited to, such greats as Marciano, Duran, Julio Ceasar Chavez, Kostya Tszyu, Leonard, Haggler, Jack Johnson, Willie Pep, James Jeffries, Evander Holyfield, and Jack Dempsey (all time classic from a different age). To further place the matter in context, boxing's third tier of ATGs (boxing "Purgatory") would consist of ATGs such as Roy Jones, Jr., Bernard Hopkins, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Tommy Hearns, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Mike Tyson, and so on and so forth. Boxing "Purgatory" is defined as that class of ATGs that for one reason or another, perhaps for personal reasons, record, or length of championship reign, reside in a certain limbo of boxing history. The fourth and final tier of ATGs reside in boxing's "Weigh Station" and consist of fighters such as DeLaHoya, Floyd Mayweather, Jr., Lennox Lewis, Sonny Liston and others. The "Weigh Station" typically consists of new or still active ATGs of which boxing history is still in the process of sifting. But, there are those that will be consigned to reside in the weigh station indefinitely or until the winds of history determine a different verdict.

It's debatable as to whether Calzaghe now resides in boxing's heaven or purgatory, and the fact that he's still active may influence his ultimate place in the rankings of the ATGs. But, at this time Calzaghe's unblemished record, length of reign, and quality of competition fought suggests a tie to the great Rocky Marciano.

Ok. It's done.

not even wastin time reading all that but HELL NAW!

end of thread

[brently1979]

Joe Calzaghe is about #99 in the greatest of all time.

I agree with that.

[wpink1]

Why are we even waisting time discussing Calzaghe. Who has he ever beat that was very good and prime, or even great. Kessler and Lacy...then 40 year olds.. He slaps like a *****. I mean he is about as much of a joke as there is when it comes to a great fighter.

I wish he and roy could have fought when Roy was prime. Calzaghe would have been stopped.

I have him ranked just outside of top 100.

[Benny Leonard]

First of all it's extremely difficult to rank the ATGs numerically. We can have a sense of who should be at the top. Yes, we can all assume Robinson, Louis, and Ali are up there. After that things start to get muddled. Many of the old greats are up there more out of respect than because we believe they would beat so and so....

A more valid ranking of the ATGs probably should begin with an analysis of the dominant champions in each weight class. And/Or, as I did in the thread starter, clump them in tiers.

Numerical rankings are impossibly debatable. How would anybody ever know whether or not Haggler or Duran could have knocked off Robinson? Yet, we all concede that Robinson is top three ATG because of a certain mythic quality that hangs in the air when Robinson is considered.

your going to have a hard time debating against Robinson. Not only do just about every sports writer, manager and trainer say he was the best they saw, but Hall of Famers including Louis and Ali said so...as well as Max Schmeling, and Ingemar Johansson {non-American}. See if I can find the video later.

[Wiley Hyena]

your going to have a hard time debating against Robinson. Not only do just about every sports writer, manager and trainer say he was the best they saw, but Hall of Famers including Louis and Ali said so...as well as Max Schmeling, and Ingemar Johansson {non-American}. See if I can find the video later.

I don't disagree with Robinson as the GOAT. It's generally accepted. I was simply pointing out the flaws in creating a numerical ranking when it regards the ATGs. For instance, prime Roberto Duran v. prime Robinson is one of the greatest battle of ATGs I can think of. Any reasonable follower of boxing would probably agree.

As an aside, it seems to me that the JRWW-WW divisions have been rather weak, at least since the time of prime Tszyu. IMO those divisions have typically possessed boxers of the greatest caliber. Not so for the last 5 years or so. I'm not sure why.

[Benny Leonard]

I don't disagree with Robinson as the GOAT. It's generally accepted. I was simply pointing out the flaws in creating a numerical ranking when it regards the ATGs. For instance, prime Roberto Duran v. prime Robinson is one of the greatest battle of ATGs I can think of. Any reasonable follower of boxing would probably agree.

As an aside, it seems to me that the JRWW-WW divisions have been rather weak, at least since the time of prime Tszyu. IMO those divisions have typically possessed boxers of the greatest caliber. Not so for the last 5 years or so. I'm not sure why.

Yes, there are flaws in created such a list, which is why there is no perfect list and there will always be debate. Although, it does seem Robinson tends to be on about 95% of fighters, sports-writers, and fans P4P ATG list...and is always on the top 5 overall {no weight limit} ATG list.

For Robinson vs. Duran: I think Robinson would win. I heard Robinson actually had trouble with Tall, rangy fighters which is why he preffered to fight smaller {in height} fighters than him. So, I say at 147, which is Robinson's best weight, a fight with Tommy Hearns would be the best match-up. I know someobdy would drop in Sam Langford's name but I have only seen about one or two fights with him on a youtube video so I'm just going by the fighter I've seen the most of. Sure, if we want to do Fantasy fights you always put Langford on there, but it's harder to give an answer based on something you barely have footage of to compare.


WW division has been strong in the past 8 years...with a bit of a draught. If you go back to 2000, if I can recall, it was loaded with fighters like Shane Mosley, Oscar De La Hoya, Tito, Vernon Forrest, and Ricardo Mayorga. Andrew Lewis was another decent opponent who was Champion until Mayorga knocked his head off.

At that time, back in the early 2000's, I thought Tszyu should have moved up to 147; it would have been greater for his legacy with those names and of course, bigger money.

Spinks later on and Judah moving up wasn't so bad. Right now the 147 division is hot. Williams, Margarito, Shane, Oscar, Cotto, Joshua Clottey, Berto, Collazo (not to bad), Quintana (not to bad)...



Here's a test for people that I've heard from sports-writers and athltes on how to determine if an athlete makes the HOF/ATG list: When you hear the persons name, how long does it take you to think if he is worthy of being called a HOF/ATG?

If you have to think; then he's not a ATG/HOF...although, he still might make the HOF because that goes by stats and look things over with time.

[El Dominicano]

He sure is!!