Is Frazier Overrated?

[phallus]

No,

I'm saying how can Fraiser be better than Foreman when he lost to him twice by KO.

there's always somebody out there who has your number... i think everyone rates shane mosley as better than vernon forrest but mosley can't beat forrest, just like barrera couldn't beat jones

[Kid Achilles]

I typed out a big response and lost it. That really pisses me off.

Let me just say that ranking Foreman ahead of Frazier because of one punch deliver on the fragile chin of one Michael Moorer, one of the lesser heavyweight champions of all time, is ridiculous. The body of work Frazier put together in the 60's and 70's is far more impressive than anything Foreman did during the comeback.

Aside from the Moorer fight, he beat a shot Cooney, was robbed vs. Briggs and beat up a completely undersized Dwight Muhammad Qawi, a man even Marciano would have had a 3 1/2" size advantage over. That's about it really, and those were the highlights. He even beat a guy named Jimmy Ellis who wasn't really Jimmy Ellis. Maybe he was hoping we'd mix the two up.

The comeback was exciting and a great time to be a boxing fan I'm sure (I wasn't into boxing at the time but I wish I was now), and it definitely cements George place in the top ten, but it isn't enough to force me to rank him above Frazier.

[DiegoFuego]

Yeah that's right I was off.

I thought he knocked him out twice, but either way Barrera was damn near dead when his corner stepped in the ring. I also wouldn't say Jones is a better fighter than Barrera is just because he beat him senseless.

Not to mention that Barrera back then was a completely different fighter than he is now. Somewhere in the 2000's, he became an exceptional boxer out of the blue. You can argue he's one of the most tactical fighters on the planet today. Frazier always fought the same way and was only beaten by the best of boxers (Ali) and the biggest of punchers (Foreman). In regards to my first post on this, I think Frazier IS a top 10 heavyweight of all time.

[hemichromis]

foreman and frazier both fought A jimmy ellis but foreman was far more impressive! he he

the truth is frazier dominated one of the best eras of heavyweights before 2 heavys that are almost always ranked 1-4 appeared o the scene

he certainly shoudlbe in anyones top ten off al time

[brownpimp88]

Joe louis would have lost to ali and foreman too, yet he's #2 cuz he was a big fish in a small pond.

[Kid Achilles]

How does Louis the straightshooter lose to Foreman with those big teleg****d punches? Look at how well Baer's power and chin helped him against Foreman, and I think he took a better shot than Big George. I'm sorry but the shortest distance between two spaces is a straight line and Louis's right hand gets to Foreman's chin before anything. Foreman was not a difficult target either, he just didn't have to face many straight punchers with real knockout power. Look what Lyle did to him when he connected, and remember that Louis ripped his shots with better speed, accuracy and snap and had a more impressive list of KO victims than Lyle. Louis hit harder than Lyle (IMO), and was a straighter puncher and more effective counterpuncher. Better eyes, reflexes, and handspeed. Lyle was life and death for Foreman, Big George could have just as easily lost that one, not a dominating victory by any means. Foreman was a sucker for a straight right down the pipe. It was because of the wide, telegraphed, sometimes wild nature of his punches. He generated a lot of power, yes, but he left himself open. Louis is just the man to expose such a weakness.

I give Foreman a puncher's chance but I think Louis murders Foreman. I doubt Foreman lasts any longer than Baer did, if even that long.

[brownpimp88]

How does Louis the straightshooter lose to Foreman with those big teleg****d punches? Look at how well Baer's power and chin helped him against Foreman, and I think he took a better shot than Big George. I'm sorry but the shortest distance between two spaces is a straight line and Louis's right hand gets to Foreman's chin before anything. Foreman was not a difficult target either, he just didn't have to face many straight punchers with real knockout power. Look what Lyle did to him when he connected, and remember that Louis ripped his shots with better speed, accuracy and snap and had a more impressive list of KO victims than Lyle. Louis hit harder than Lyle (IMO), and was a straighter puncher and more effective counterpuncher. Better eyes, reflexes, and handspeed. Lyle was life and death for Foreman, Big George could have just as easily lost that one, not a dominating victory by any means. Foreman was a sucker for a straight right down the pipe. It was because of the wide, telegraphed, sometimes wild nature of his punches. He generated a lot of power, yes, but he left himself open. Louis is just the man to expose such a weakness.

I give Foreman a puncher's chance but I think Louis murders Foreman. I doubt Foreman lasts any longer than Baer did, if even that long.

Louis wasnt exactly known for having a strong chin and he is also giving up reach and size. You also have to take into account that he just looks good cuz he fought in a weak era for heavyweights. There is no doubt at all that foreman, frazier and ali fought in the best heavyweight era.

[Kid Achilles]

Baer had reach and size as well. How did it help him?

Louis did not fight in a weak erafor heavyweights. He faced a diverse group of challengers of many different styles and sizes and beat them all. How many 6'6" 250 lb heavy punching brawlers did Foreman have to face? Foreman bullied a lot of guys smaller than himself, very few of the being good straight punchers. Louis took on every imaginable style from straight up enormous sluggers to smaller bob and weaves to moves to counterpunchers, every style you can imagine, and remained and undefeated champion longer than anyone else.

As for Foreman, he avoided one of the best and most popular challengers of his era, Jerry Quarry. That would have been a big money fight and his avoiding it is a serious knock against Foreman. When he fought someone who had the skills to be competitive with him and hang around until the later rounds (Ali and Young), he got his ass kicked. When he fought someone who had power of their own and who stood up to him in Ron Lyle, he was almost knocked out himself.

As far as I'm concerned, Foreman in a head to head sense wasn't much greater than a motivated Baer. Obviously he accomplished more, and deserves to be rated well above Baer because of this, but in my personal opinion, Foreman was very lucky he didn't face a guy like Louis, or even a quick handed man of similar size and power in Cleveland Williams or Max Baer.

Foreman did some impressive things in his career and is a true legend because of this, but he was never even close to invincible in his prime. That's something his legion of fans on this site need to face.

[brownpimp88]

Baer had reach and size as well. How did it help him?

Louis did not fight in a weak erafor heavyweights. He faced a diverse group of challengers of many different styles and sizes and beat them all. How many 6'6" 250 lb heavy punching brawlers did Foreman have to face? Foreman bullied a lot of guys smaller than himself, very few of the being good straight punchers. Louis took on every imaginable style from straight up enormous sluggers to smaller bob and weaves to moves to counterpunchers, every style you can imagine, and remained and undefeated champion longer than anyone else.

As for Foreman, he avoided one of the best and most popular challengers of his era, Jerry Quarry. That would have been a big money fight and his avoiding it is a serious knock against Foreman. When he fought someone who had the skills to be competitive with him and hang around until the later rounds (Ali and Young), he got his ass kicked. When he fought someone who had power of their own and who stood up to him in Ron Lyle, he was almost knocked out himself.

As far as I'm concerned, Foreman in a head to head sense wasn't much greater than a motivated Baer. Obviously he accomplished more, and deserves to be rated well above Baer because of this, but in my personal opinion, Foreman was very lucky he didn't face a guy like Louis, or even a quick handed man of similar size and power in Cleveland Williams or Max Baer.

Foreman did some impressive things in his career and is a true legend because of this, but he was never even close to invincible in his prime. That's something his legion of fans on this site need to face.

Look i dont treat foreman like a god, i'm convinced he dodged larry holmes during his comeback cuz larry would hand his ass on a silver platter. However, i am not pleased with the way joe louis takes his stance when he fights, its completely old school. He leaves himself open cuz he's over confident, thats why he's been dropped many times in his career. The first thing i look at when i watch fights, is the way they move and take thier stance. He leaves himself open so nicely.

[Kid Achilles]

Foreman was the king of leaving himself open, every time he punches he's open, and since he telegraphs himself he makes it well known. Watch the Lyle fight if you want to see a guy who's open.

Louis left himself open because he liked to play the part of a counterpuncher who wanted to draw the opponents punches. you leave yourself open, they punch, and you slip and nail them. Part of his style, and why he was so effective. Part of the reason I see him creaming Foreman.

Now against a quick movile boxer who didn't telegraph his shots like Ali, Louis would be in trouble, but Foreman is made to order for Louis IMO.