Is Frazier Overrated?

[brownpimp88]

Foreman was the king of leaving himself open, every time he punches he's open, and since he telegraphs himself he makes it well known. Watch the Lyle fight if you want to see a guy who's open.

Louis left himself open because he liked to play the part of a counterpuncher who wanted to draw the opponents punches. you leave yourself open, they punch, and you slip and nail them. Part of his style, and why he was so effective. Part of the reason I see him creaming Foreman.

Now against a quick movile boxer who didn't telegraph his shots like Ali, Louis would be in trouble, but Foreman is made to order for Louis IMO.

yeah i saw the lyle fight and he almost lost, however he won cuz u cant beat him by outslugging him.

[Kid Achilles]

No Lyle lost because he was not that great of a boxer or defensive fighter and got hit too much for his own good in that fight. Louis would be nailing Foreman, and he wouldn't get getting hit to the same degree that Lyle was.

Louis would not be slugging with him, he'd be countering him.

[K-DOGG]

Baer had reach and size as well. How did it help him?

Louis did not fight in a weak erafor heavyweights. He faced a diverse group of challengers of many different styles and sizes and beat them all. How many 6'6" 250 lb heavy punching brawlers did Foreman have to face? Foreman bullied a lot of guys smaller than himself, very few of the being good straight punchers. Louis took on every imaginable style from straight up enormous sluggers to smaller bob and weaves to moves to counterpunchers, every style you can imagine, and remained and undefeated champion longer than anyone else.

As for Foreman, he avoided one of the best and most popular challengers of his era, Jerry Quarry. That would have been a big money fight and his avoiding it is a serious knock against Foreman. When he fought someone who had the skills to be competitive with him and hang around until the later rounds (Ali and Young), he got his ass kicked. When he fought someone who had power of their own and who stood up to him in Ron Lyle, he was almost knocked out himself.

As far as I'm concerned, Foreman in a head to head sense wasn't much greater than a motivated Baer. Obviously he accomplished more, and deserves to be rated well above Baer because of this, but in my personal opinion, Foreman was very lucky he didn't face a guy like Louis, or even a quick handed man of similar size and power in Cleveland Williams or Max Baer.

Foreman did some impressive things in his career and is a true legend because of this, but he was never even close to invincible in his prime. That's something his legion of fans on this site need to face.

Helluva Post....and you couldn't be more "spot on" if you tried!


Nice.

[kayjay]

Is that why he was KOed by Foreman twice?
How can he be greater than the man who beat him twice?

You never see DLH rated higher than Tito...

Huh???? How could anyone not rate DLH higher than Tito??

I don't know if he rates higher than Foreman, but you can't judge everything by head to head. He won the one that counted against Ali, and that fight capped an impressive reign. Not one of the best heavyweight reigns ever, but certainly in the top ten.

[kayjay]

Lets not get into the "what ifs" his record remains as it is...

32 - 4 - 1

4 Title defenses
2KO losses to Forman
1 - 2 with Ali

What makes him a GOAT?


He kind of resembles Brewster to me.

Oooooooh Soprano you're hurting me today. I still have love for you though. Brewster was a paper champ with a freaky win over Klitschko. Frazier took it to the Greatest over fifteen, knocking him down arguably twice and winnning a clear decision. I know you're just being hyperbolic, but . . .

[brownpimp88]

No Lyle lost because he was not that great of a boxer or defensive fighter and got hit too much for his own good in that fight. Louis would be nailing Foreman, and he wouldn't get getting hit to the same degree that Lyle was.

Louis would not be slugging with him, he'd be countering him.

Joe Louis admits he wouldnt even beat rocky in his prime, why cuz he wasnt cautious at all, he just comes forward without any defence.

[Kid Achilles]

No, he said guys who pressured him with that swarming style bothered him. Foreman was not a swarmer. He was a taller and bigger target than Marciano. You could argue that Tyson would have Louis's number, going by what Joe said about Rocky, but not Foreman.

[Guest]

I think you're being a bit stat-heavy, Mr. Soprano (reminds me of Diego****o's "Floyd is better than Sugar Ray cos Sugar Ray lost 19 times) but I agree, if you're saying Frazier is top ten all time then he's PROBABLY overrated.

He's still the **** though and I love him. Anyone who can trade on equal terms with the No.1 heavy of all time has to be something.

[K-DOGG]

I think you're being a bit stat-heavy, Mr. Soprano (reminds me of Diego****o's "Floyd is better than Sugar Ray cos Sugar Ray lost 19 times) but I agree, if you're saying Frazier is top ten all time then he's PROBABLY overrated.

He's still the **** though and I love him. Anyone who can trade on equal terms with the No.1 heavy of all time has to be something.

Annie, you just said it all with that last sentence.

Props, bro.

[joelouisbarrow]

How does Louis the straightshooter lose to Foreman with those big teleg****d punches? Look at how well Baer's power and chin helped him against Foreman, and I think he took a better shot than Big George. I'm sorry but the shortest distance between two spaces is a straight line and Louis's right hand gets to Foreman's chin before anything. Foreman was not a difficult target either, he just didn't have to face many straight punchers with real knockout power. Look what Lyle did to him when he connected, and remember that Louis ripped his shots with better speed, accuracy and snap and had a more impressive list of KO victims than Lyle. Louis hit harder than Lyle (IMO), and was a straighter puncher and more effective counterpuncher. Better eyes, reflexes, and handspeed. Lyle was life and death for Foreman, Big George could have just as easily lost that one, not a dominating victory by any means. Foreman was a sucker for a straight right down the pipe. It was because of the wide, telegraphed, sometimes wild nature of his punches. He generated a lot of power, yes, but he left himself open. Louis is just the man to expose such a weakness.

I give Foreman a puncher's chance but I think Louis murders Foreman. I doubt Foreman lasts any longer than Baer did, if even that long.

one of the best posts ive read in my short tenure