head to head Billy Conn Ezzard Charles

[billeau2]

Hey George, nice of you to drop in, how's that dual Mustard-Ketchup bottle coming? I think you're really on to something there.

So predictable... When caught in an absurdity try the ad homenum angle. Predictable is usually easy victory, in life, in fight sports... Which reminds me of a story... There once was a Russian wrestler. The guy looked like Valuev and was unbeatable. You probably know his name... I don't. It got to the point that people were afraid to wrestle the guy. Karelin that was his name!

Along comes this kid Gardner facing the feared Russian. Gardner knew that the one weakness Karlin had, was that he was predictable. He was so strong he could in essence, lift a fellow wrestler and body slam him. It took a real leap of faith for Gardner but at least he knew what he had to avoid to win...

Which is how he won. Surviving, making sure karelin could not lift him...

Predictability is what cause karelin who had not ceded a point in many previous matches, to lose Rusty think about it!

[Rusty Tromboni]

So predictable... When caught in an absurdity try the ad homenum angle. Predictable is usually easy victory, in life, in fight sports... Which reminds me of a story... There once was a Russian wrestler. The guy looked like Valuev and was unbeatable. You probably know his name... I don't. It got to the point that people were afraid to wrestle the guy. Karelin that was his name!

Along comes this kid Gardner facing the feared Russian. Gardner knew that the one weakness Karlin had, was that he was predictable. He was so strong he could in essence, lift a fellow wrestler and body slam him. It took a real leap of faith for Gardner but at least he knew what he had to avoid to win...

Which is how he won. Surviving, making sure karelin could not lift him...

Predictability is what cause karelin who had not ceded a point in many previous matches, to lose Rusty think about it!

Is Kramer really as tall as he appears on tv?

None of you ever thought to buy him a comb for Festivus?

How is Jerry the only person in NYC without locks on his apartment door?

[Tom Cruise]

You really think he stays at top Heavyweight in any other era?

Whenever he stepped up he was stopped. Ali stopped him. Patterson stopped him. Have you seen the first fight with Yvon Durrelle?

Can you tell me who he was beating at this time?


This is what I love schit Boxing fans. They love fighters they know nothing about. Because someone told them something about a fighter they take it as Gospel.

Average Joe: "He fought for 25 years and had 400 fights!"

Me: "OK, against who?"

Average Joe: "Ummm... that ONE other famous guy"

Me: "can you nane some else?"

Average Joe: ummm... well... they were really tough in those days! Real fighters who didn't A LOT!

Me: "OK, so how about just the championship opponents"?

Average Joe: uhh... they had SKILLZ,yo. Really skilled fighters.

Me: cool, what skills did he have?

Average Joe: you don't get it, Kevin. This guy had skills.

Me: like what?

Average Joe: everyone knows it, everyone says it.

Me: i'm not asking everyone, i'm asking you.

Average Joe: "he fought for decades, and had hundreds of fights"

See how that goes?

I definitely consider Moore skilled and lethal. But he reached his ceiling at Heavyweight against Marciano - a guy who turned Pro at 24 with virtually no amateur career to speak of, and who retired 49-0 (43) in about 8 years. A small Heavyweight with no great proclivity for Boxing skill. Indisputably a force of nature - talented, tough, disciplined, determined and a strategic genius. But very likely someone who wouldn't be champ in any other era - so easily or for so long, undernormal circumstances.

His record at 40+ (using Ring Rankings)...

'56:
Yolande Pompey (2), Floyd Patterson (1 at LHW, fought at HW) - L

'57:
Tony Anthony (5)

'58:
Yvonne Durell (3)

'59:
Yvonne Durell (3)

'61:
Guilio Rinaldi (5)

'62:
Alejandro Lavorante (5 HW)

'63:
Cassius Clay (9 HW) - L

Also had a draw with Pastrano in there as well. Was he at his best? No. He was regularly fighting at around 190lbs, and dropping back down to LHW to beat ranked contenders, so naturally wouldnt be at his best. Still definitely in your prime if you are beating decent ranked fighters year after year. I only brought this up because you seem to think its a blotch on Charles' record that he was basically done by 32, yet Moore fought at the top level way longer than most of the guys you are praising, yet he wasnt very good?

How does this work? You either use the same reasoning for everyone, or you dont use it at all. I could name a pre war guy who had basically a 3 year prime who is widely, and rightly, considered one of the greatest fighters of all time.

[Rusty Tromboni]

His record at 40+ (using Ring Rankings)...

'56:
Yolande Pompey (2), Floyd Patterson (1 at LHW, fought at HW) - L

'57:
Tony Anthony (5)

'58:
Yvonne Durell (3)

'59:
Yvonne Durell (3)

'61:
Guilio Rinaldi (5)

'62:
Alejandro Lavorante (5 HW)

'63:
Cassius Clay (9 HW) - L

Also had a draw with Pastrano in there as well. Was he at his best? No. He was regularly fighting at around 190lbs, and dropping back down to LHW to beat ranked contenders, so naturally wouldnt be at his best. Still definitely in your prime if you are beating decent ranked fighters year after year. I only brought this up because you seem to think its a blotch on Charles' record that he was basically done by 32, yet Moore fought at the top level way longer than most of the guys you are praising, yet he wasnt very good?

How does this work? You either use the same reasoning for everyone, or you dont use it at all. I could name a pre war guy who had basically a 3 year prime who is widely, and rightly, considered one of the greatest fighters of all time.

If those guys are top 10 fighters, you've answered your own question.

The same can be said of Robinson. Before the War, the division saw the likes of Steele, Apostoli, Yarosz. Robinson, Cerdan, Burley and LaMotta were post-War holdovers.

Do you think Robinson would've stayed on top for so long if the Middleweight division had maintained that level of skill?

Robinson lost the title to Carmen Basillio, for God's sake!

And the best fighter he ever fought at the weight (ever)?

Joey Archer... in 1965.


Do you see how long things took to recover?

[Tom Cruise]

If those guys are top 10 fighters, you've answered your own question.

The same can be said of Robinson. Before the War, the division saw the likes of Steele, Apostoli, Yarosz. Robinson, Cerdan, Burley and LaMotta were post-War holdovers.

Do you think Robinson would've stayed on top for so long if the Middleweight division had maintained that level of skill?

Robinson lost the title to Carmen Basillio, for God's sake!

And the best fighter he ever fought at the weight (ever)?

Joey Archer... in 1965.


Do you see how long things took to recover?

The best MW SRR ever fought was Joey Archer?

Jesus

We're done here I think.

[BattlingNelson]

So predictable... When caught in an absurdity try the ad homenum angle. Predictable is usually easy victory, in life, in fight sports... Which reminds me of a story... There once was a Russian wrestler. The guy looked like Valuev and was unbeatable. You probably know his name... I don't. It got to the point that people were afraid to wrestle the guy. Karelin that was his name!

Along comes this kid Gardner facing the feared Russian. Gardner knew that the one weakness Karlin had, was that he was predictable. He was so strong he could in essence, lift a fellow wrestler and body slam him. It took a real leap of faith for Gardner but at least he knew what he had to avoid to win...

Which is how he won. Surviving, making sure karelin could not lift him...

Predictability is what cause karelin who had not ceded a point in many previous matches, to lose Rusty think about it!

Aleksandr Karelin. Record: 887-2.............


Damn. Thats a monster:

[Rusty Tromboni]

The best MW SRR ever fought was Joey Archer?

Jesus

We're done here I think.

I get it. You've probably never seen any of the fighters we've been discussing. Not outside a few highlight clips.

But do you mind telling me where I'm wrong about Archer? If there's anyone who should hold claim to the civeted 49-0 claim, and take pride in it as more than just some superficial accomplishment, it's Archer.

But please, tell me where I'm wrong. Preferably, after actually familiarizing yourself with Archer.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Aleksandr Karelin. Record: 887-2.............


Damn. Thats a monster:

One of my idols growing up.

He lost on a technicality from a recent rule change. So, again, Billeau completely discredits himself speaking on a topic he knows nothing about.

Check out John Smith and Dan Gable, too.

[Willie Pep 229]

Aleksandr Karelin. Record: 887-2.............


Damn. Thats a monster:

overrated ..........

[BattlingNelson]

overrated ..........

I don’t follow wrestling at all, but how can a guy with 3 Olympic golds and countless other championships to go with a mind boggling record be overrated?