Why is Tunney a great heavyweight?

[Willie Pep 229]

Well said.

Still, Heavyweight seems yo have been Gene's best weight. He was finally coming into his own when he retired.

So while Tunney is the greatest Heavyweight Champion we never had. I just can't bring myself to rank him there due to lack of tenure.

So if Tunney stays until 1932, what's his itinerary after Heeney in '28?

He had already put aside Tommy Gibbons and Carpentier so there would be little to no interest there, and Sharkey took Wills out of the picture. Greb was dead.

In '29 Sharkey chased after Tunney calling him out, but Tunney had no interest, and Dempsey had diminished Sharkey's stock.

So who were the contenders?

'29 Jack Sharkey ?
'30 Max Schmeling ?
'31 Tommy Loughran ?
'32 Primo Carnea ?

Would have those four defenses gotten him to the level of greatness you are suggesting? (Read as a legit question, not a challenge.)

You have to add in: today we wouldn't be looking at Sharkey, Schmeling, and Carnera as former champions, only failed contenders.

Taking Tunney into '33 or '34 to face Max Baer seems unrealistic/unfair.

I can't figure who else he could have defended against.

Paulino Uzcudun, Art Lasky, King Levinsky, Young Stribling, or maybe Micky Walker?

Do any of these fights (wins) get him to the top of the ATG list? I not sure there was a road there.

[JAB5239]

Well said.

Still, Heavyweight seems yo have been Gene's best weight. He was finally coming into his own when he retired.

So while Tunney is the greatest Heavyweight Champion we never had. I just can't bring myself to rank him there due to lack of tenure.

And that is exactly my point. Tunney could have very well gone on to have a long a prominent reign had he chosen to keep fighting. But I can't in good conscience put him ahead of fighters who actually did that.

[ShoulderRoll]

So if Tunney stays until 1932, what's his itinerary after Heeney in '28?

He had already put aside Tommy Gibbons and Carpentier so there would be little to no interest there, and Sharkey took Wills out of the picture. Greb was dead.

In '29 Sharkey chased after Tunney calling him out, but Tunney had no interest, and Dempsey had diminished Sharkey's stock.

So who were the contenders?

'29 Jack Sharkey ?
'30 Max Schmeling ?
'31 Tommy Loughran ?
'32 Primo Carnea ?

Would have those four defenses gotten him to the level of greatness you are suggesting? (Read as a legit question, not a challenge.)

You have to add in: today we wouldn't be looking at Sharkey, Schmeling, and Carnera as former champions, only failed contenders.

Taking Tunney into '33 or '34 to face Max Baer seems unrealistic/unfair.

I can't figure who else he could have defended against.

Paulino Uzcudun, Art Lasky, King Levinsky, Young Stribling, or maybe Micky Walker?

Do any of these fights (wins) get him to the top of the ATG list? I not sure there was a road there.

Maybe Tunney would have stuck around to fight Joe Louis. We know that good movers could give Louis trouble...

[QueensburyRules]

Maybe Tunney would have stuck around to fight Joe Louis. We know that good movers could give Louis trouble...

- -Yeah, could stuck around for Rocky, but dunno if he's still good for another 14 count!

[JAB5239]

Maybe Tunney would have stuck around to fight Joe Louis. We know that good movers could give Louis trouble...

I think Louis would have beaten Tunney at any point in his career. At least the prime Louis. But the timeline doesn't fit here. Louis wouldn't have gotten a fight like that till at least 1935 and that would make Tunney 38 years old. He would hardly have the same spring in his step. On top of that, I highly doubt Tunney would have fought Louis anyway.

[Rusty Tromboni]

So if Tunney stays until 1932, what's his itinerary after Heeney in '28?

He had already put aside Tommy Gibbons and Carpentier so there would be little to no interest there, and Sharkey took Wills out of the picture. Greb was dead.

In '29 Sharkey chased after Tunney calling him out, but Tunney had no interest, and Dempsey had diminished Sharkey's stock.

So who were the contenders?

'29 Jack Sharkey ?
'30 Max Schmeling ?
'31 Tommy Loughran ?
'32 Primo Carnea ?

Would have those four defenses gotten him to the level of greatness you are suggesting? (Read as a legit question, not a challenge.)

You have to add in: today we wouldn't be looking at Sharkey, Schmeling, and Carnera as former champions, only failed contenders.

Taking Tunney into '33 or '34 to face Max Baer seems unrealistic/unfair.

I can't figure who else he could have defended against.

Paulino Uzcudun, Art Lasky, King Levinsky, Young Stribling, or maybe Micky Walker?

Do any of these fights (wins) get him to the top of the ATG list? I not sure there was a road there.

Damn.

Now that's a fine post.

Not that I'm not swayed, but can I ask why Sharkey was stick was diminished? He'd put up a strong resistance against Dempsey.

Loughran was certainly deserving of a rematch. And I've heard rumor that he handled Dempsey even more convincingly in sparring than Tunney did in their official affairs. Take that as you will.

Schmeling would've been a wonderful challenge. I understand that is a comment made in reteospect.

It's worth mentioning that there was talk of Tunney fighting Stribling before challenging Dempsey. I could be wrong. But it fits with the view that Tunney was very careful about who and when he fought.

[Rusty Tromboni]

So if Tunney stays until 1932, what's his itinerary after Heeney in '28?

He had already put aside Tommy Gibbons and Carpentier so there would be little to no interest there, and Sharkey took Wills out of the picture. Greb was dead.

In '29 Sharkey chased after Tunney calling him out, but Tunney had no interest, and Dempsey had diminished Sharkey's stock.

So who were the contenders?

'29 Jack Sharkey ?
'30 Max Schmeling ?
'31 Tommy Loughran ?
'32 Primo Carnea ?

Would have those four defenses gotten him to the level of greatness you are suggesting? (Read as a legit question, not a challenge.)

You have to add in: today we wouldn't be looking at Sharkey, Schmeling, and Carnera as former champions, only failed contenders.

Taking Tunney into '33 or '34 to face Max Baer seems unrealistic/unfair.

I can't figure who else he could have defended against.

Paulino Uzcudun, Art Lasky, King Levinsky, Young Stribling, or maybe Micky Walker?

Do any of these fights (wins) get him to the top of the ATG list? I not sure there was a road there.

And to answer your question, if he does beat those men, it certainly adds to his legacy. He now has better scalps than pretty much anyone until the arrival of Ali:

Dempsey
Tommy Loughran
Prime Sharkey
Prime Schmeling
Young Carnera

If maybe Uzcudun, Stribling and certainly Baer and Louis sneak in there, Tunney has the greatest list of scalps (at least on paper) in Heavyweight history.

I really do believe he could do it. Really, until Ali and Frazier appear in the late 60's, there isn't a Heavyweight I'd pick to beat him.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Maybe Tunney would have stuck around to fight Joe Louis. We know that good movers could give Louis trouble...

Yeah, Gene was really quick, but also highly efficient in his movement. Way better than Conn and Walcott, not that they were slouches.

What really set him apart, though, was his power. He started out like a Foreman, but became more of an Ali for Dempsey. But his sparring partners claim his power was improving, and Dempsey said Gene had the best power he ever felt. Even if he lost a step, the well conditioned and well prepared Tunney would probably have the right blend of defence AND power for handling Louis. No small task, of course.

I think Louis would have beaten Tunney at any point in his career. At least the prime Louis. But the timeline doesn't fit here. Louis wouldn't have gotten a fight like that till at least 1935 and that would make Tunney 38 years old. He would hardly have the same spring in his step. On top of that, I highly doubt Tunney would have fought Louis anyway.

You can watch their refurbished fights. Louis was far too slow for Tunney and Dempsey in their prime. Even at his very best he was slow and vulnerable. Still short of his prime, Billy Conn put on one of the most heroic episodes in Boxing history (and had underrated power), but he played Louis' game all night. Tunney and Dempsey weren't just bigger and better fighters than Conn, they played to cross weaknesses, rather than to his strengths.

I agree, Tunney at 38 might have too much mileage. But that's what they ate saying about Monzon heading into his bout with Valdez. Tunney wasn't like Ali; he was far more economical and subtle. And he didn't make the same technical mistakes. He was also a tremendous puncher in his own right. At least one on par with Moxie Schmeling.

[Rusty Tromboni]

- -Yeah, could stuck around for Rocky, but dunno if he's still good for another 14 count!

Watch the refurbished footage. He knows what he's doing. And he handles himself properly when the action resumes.
Hurt? Sure.
Surprised? Definitely.
Out? No fookin way.

[Rusty Tromboni]

And that is exactly my point. Tunney could have very well gone on to have a long a prominent reign had he chosen to keep fighting. But I can't in good conscience put him ahead of fighters who actually did that.

Just playing Devil's Advocate, then how so you rank Loughran? He's the greatest Heavyweight to never win the championship. All that jazz about Langford, Wills, Bivins etc. Being locked out of getting a title shot actually applies to him. He has a long and stellar record at Heavyweight. So where does he rank?