Why is Tunney a great heavyweight?

[ShoulderRoll]

So we're judging fighters and casting greatness upon them for being great in one division and only proving themselves by beating one fighter of note in the next division? If Usyk gets a Joshua fight next, beats him and retires, are we going to start mentioning him amongst the greatest heavyweights of all time?

All-time great status is subjective. There is no way to ever prove definitively that Gene Tunney could have beaten John Ruiz or Nikolai Valuev.

All we can do is speculate.

Me personally I would pick Tunney to box the breaks off those two oafs, based on the boxing technique and intelligence I see on video. So I rank him above them historically.

That's just my opinion, though. You certainly can have a different opinion and use heavyweight resume to come up with a different ranking if you want.

But I don't think that would make my opinion unreasonable or less valid.

[billeau2]

Why is Gene Tunney looked at as a great or borderline great heavyweight? He beat Dempsey twice. Dempsey was coming off a three year layoff and wouldn't even fight his number one contender. So what is it about Tunney? I've seen him ranked as a top 20 heavyweight and in some instances a top 10.

As a lightheavyweight he is arguably the best.....at the very least top 5. At heavyweight though.......what did he do?

I noticed many years ago, coming out of being in a Buddhist Monastic community, and settling, at the time in Northern California, the Bay Area, that the so called "spiritual community" that was claimed on the West Coast, including the Zen Center... was in fact a lot of people who had very sensationalized views of Eastern Spirituality... People who were drawn to sexy traditions like Tantric practices...etc.

It took me many years to lose some of the resentment I had for this whole scene... I realized that from this garbage, these sensationalized communities, every now and then...purely by haphanstanz, someone would be led down the right path and become an actual legit practicioner.

Boxing! Same exact thing...So the casuals bite hard and nourish their minds on the great fighters...and then come the secondary great fighters... Guys like Tunney. And, because Tunney and Moore and other such guys are hardly understood at first by casuals, the same conclusions are drawn... Just like the idiots I saw who went into the Tibetan Ashram to sleep with other people...

And like the few who will grow right, there will be a select few who eventually figure it out: Tunney was an incredible fighter, but not really an incredible heavyweight when compared to his ability as a light heavy.

Nothing that you said in your post Jab is wrong... Its just a matter of people looking and seeing the second layer of greatness that fighters like Tunney had.

I think Tunney was one of the greatest fighters that ever lived for another reason: Tunney was trained and learned to fight in post and pre-modern boxing systems. If you ever want to watch a fighter combine bare knuckle type skills and the modern age of the puncher, Tunney stands alone in his ability to have done such.

Jim Corbett, who never fought a sanctioned bare knuckle fight, was brought to bare in that era. If you watch him fight, he uses all the tricks of the trade. things one sees from that era: setting traps, footwork at a distance of 3 feet, etc. tunney is seen working with Corbett and being taught by corbett.

The thing that makes the Dempsey fight so epic is how Tunney used the methods primarily taught by preModern boxing, to defeat the modern punching marvel Jack Dempsey. the fact that Dempsey was a heavyweight is important, but not really the thing that makes the that fight so interesting. The fight is a watershed moment where one can actually see how the two styles confront each other.

[JAB5239]

All-time great status is subjective. There is no way to ever prove definitively that Gene Tunney could have beaten John Ruiz or Nikolai Valuev.

All we can do is speculate.

Me personally I would pick Tunney to box the breaks off those two oafs, based on the boxing technique and intelligence I see on video. So I rank him above them historically.

That's just my opinion, though. You certainly can have a different opinion and use heavyweight resume to come up with a different ranking if you want.

But I don't think that would make my opinion unreasonable or less valid.

My opinion being different does not invalidate your opinion at all. As you said, and like many things related to boxing history, it's subjective.

[JAB5239]

I noticed many years ago, coming out of being in a Buddhist Monastic community, and settling, at the time in Northern California, the Bay Area, that the so called "spiritual community" that was claimed on the West Coast, including the Zen Center... was in fact a lot of people who had very sensationalized views of Eastern Spirituality... People who were drawn to sexy traditions like Tantric practices...etc.

It took me many years to lose some of the resentment I had for this whole scene... I realized that from this garbage, these sensationalized communities, every now and then...purely by haphanstanz, someone would be led down the right path and become an actual legit practicioner.

Boxing! Same exact thing...So the casuals bite hard and nourish their minds on the great fighters...and then come the secondary great fighters... Guys like Tunney. And, because Tunney and Moore and other such guys are hardly understood at first by casuals, the same conclusions are drawn... Just like the idiots I saw who went into the Tibetan Ashram to sleep with other people...

And like the few who will grow right, there will be a select few who eventually figure it out: Tunney was an incredible fighter, but not really an incredible heavyweight when compared to his ability as a light heavy.

Nothing that you said in your post Jab is wrong... Its just a matter of people looking and seeing the second layer of greatness that fighters like Tunney had.

I think Tunney was one of the greatest fighters that ever lived for another reason: Tunney was trained and learned to fight in post and pre-modern boxing systems. If you ever want to watch a fighter combine bare knuckle type skills and the modern age of the puncher, Tunney stands alone in his ability to have done such.

Jim Corbett, who never fought a sanctioned bare knuckle fight, was brought to bare in that era. If you watch him fight, he uses all the tricks of the trade. things one sees from that era: setting traps, footwork at a distance of 3 feet, etc. tunney is seen working with Corbett and being taught by corbett.

The thing that makes the Dempsey fight so epic is how Tunney used the methods primarily taught by preModern boxing, to defeat the modern punching marvel Jack Dempsey. the fact that Dempsey was a heavyweight is important, but not really the thing that makes the that fight so interesting. The fight is a watershed moment where one can actually see how the two styles confront each other.

Top notch post as usual.

[billeau2]

Top notch post as usual.

Thank you Jab. Here is another way to look at it: We all like to discuss magical match ups.

Watching Tunney versus Dempsey...and by the way, I do not think any approach was significantly "better" than the other... would be like watching a fighter from an art that is no longer practiced, something like Greek Pankratian, versus a modern MMA fighter.

[uncle ben]

Why is Gene Tunney looked at as a great or borderline great heavyweight? He beat Dempsey twice. Dempsey was coming off a three year layoff and wouldn't even fight his number one contender. So what is it about Tunney? I've seen him ranked as a top 20 heavyweight and in some instances a top 10.

As a lightheavyweight he is arguably the best.....at the very least top 5. At heavyweight though.......what did he do?

Stop trying to challenge conventionally held wisdom!!!

[Rusty Tromboni]

Tunney is a conundrum. He was coming into his own at Heavyweight, but retired. So really, we can almost only judge him as a fighter based on work at Light Heavyweight.

I don't rank him particularly high, if at all, at Heavyweight. But I concede, on film, he is the best we have until Ali and Frazie; men much bigger than him, benefitting from a full generation of development in Boxing skill.

[HOUDINI563]

Tunney was the greatest pure boxer ever to hold the worlds heavyweight championship. He beat Dempsey twice. Yes this was not Dempsey in his prime but a Dempsey good enough to crush the No 1 contender, Sharkey, with one blow (no the three body blows were not low). He also beat Gibbons. For me his skill set at heavyweight puts him in my top ten at heavyweight. He would be an extremely tough opponent to beat for any heavyweight champion before or since.

[JAB5239]

Tunney was the greatest pure boxer ever to hold the worlds heavyweight championship. He beat Dempsey twice. Yes this was not Dempsey in his prime but a Dempsey good enough to crush the No 1 contender, Sharkey, with one blow (no the three body blows were not low). He also beat Gibbons. For me his skill set at heavyweight puts him in my top ten at heavyweight. He would be an extremely tough opponent to beat for any heavyweight champion before or since.

Being the greatest pure boxer at heavyweight (which I'm inclined to agree with) does not make him an all time great at heavyweight. His resume at that weight just doesn't support it. Jofre may have been the best pure boxer at bantamweight, or Duran at lightweight, but im not sure either belongs in the top 10 or even top 20 at feather and welterweight. Jmo.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Being the greatest pure boxer at heavyweight (which I'm inclined to agree with) does not make him an all time great at heavyweight. His resume at that weight just doesn't support it. Jofre may have been the best pure boxer at bantamweight, or Duran at lightweight, but im not sure either belongs in the top 10 or even top 20 at feather and welterweight. Jmo.

Well said.

Still, Heavyweight seems yo have been Gene's best weight. He was finally coming into his own when he retired.

So while Tunney is the greatest Heavyweight Champion we never had. I just can't bring myself to rank him there due to lack of tenure.