Why is Tunney a great heavyweight?

[Tom Cruise]

Why is Gene Tunney looked at as a great or borderline great heavyweight? He beat Dempsey twice. Dempsey was coming off a three year layoff and wouldn't even fight his number one contender. So what is it about Tunney? I've seen him ranked as a top 20 heavyweight and in some instances a top 10.

As a lightheavyweight he is arguably the best.....at the very least top 5. At heavyweight though.......what did he do?

Yeah I see this too. Even see him ranked by knowledgeable guys in top 15. Though I would also add ranked guys like Risko, Heeney and Gibbons (even though he was a LHW mostly) to his HW ledger.

For me, he could have been a great HW, but didnt get there because he retired without enough on his resume.

Ezzard Charles on the other hand is very underrated as a HW imo, while we are talking LHWs who stepped up to HW. When I did an admittedly flawed look at Ring ranked opponents for HWs at the time they fought them, Charles came out no.3 behind only Louis and Ali (who were miles ahead of everyone). Which I thought was crazy. Caveat is that a lot of them were smaller HWs, but they were still ranked in the division.

[HOUDINI563]

Again, he beat one of the greatest of all heavyweights twice as well as leading Contender Gibbons. Tunney checked all the boxes in terms of being an ATG fighter. He was the cleverest of boxers, superbly conditioned and was as tough as nails. He would have been a very difficult opponent for any heavyweight champion to beat. Only a handful would do so at his best.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Loughrans resume at heavyweight was better than I had previously given him credit for. He probably deserved a shot at sometime. I wouldn't put him on par Langford or Wills. Probably more along the line with Bivins. His work at heavyweight was patchy and he never had a long streak at that weight.

Now it's my turn to play devil's advocate. Shouldn't Greb have Gotten a shot at Dempsey considering he was 4-1-1 against Loughran? Arguably 5-1. We know Jack liked to fight light heavies, and Greb had beaten the best of the and smoked Dempsey when they sparred, no? 😉

Loughran fought a completely different calibre of fighter than Wills and Langford. He could actually beat Sharkey. And that's not even his best scalp at the weight.

It's been said Dempsey feared Loughran more than Tunney. That's why he made Tommy his sparring partner and Tunney (who was considered more of a slugger than a pure-boxer or boxer-puncher) recieved the title shot. I dunno how true that is, but it's something that used to be said by old heads who knew the game.

But not only does Loughran look far better on film than Wills and Langford (he's clearly an antecedent to Pep), he fought much greater competition, when any other man would've been too old and too small to be getting those fights.

He was screwed out of the Heavyweight belt by Owney Madden, Carnera's owner.


As for Greb. I think it's Boxing's greatest tragedy he never fought Dempsey. Even if he had no chance of winning, I wish the fight happened (at least once) and it were filmed. And it were perfectly preserved. And we could all truly know the measure of Greb's greatness. No discussion.

Still, I find our own Willie Pep's argument convincing. Greb just didn't have the angle or the financial backing.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Yeah I see this too. Even see him ranked by knowledgeable guys in top 15. Though I would also add ranked guys like Risko, Heeney and Gibbons (even though he was a LHW mostly) to his HW ledger.

For me, he could have been a great HW, but didnt get there because he retired without enough on his resume.

Ezzard Charles on the other hand is very underrated as a HW imo, while we are talking LHWs who stepped up to HW. When I did an admittedly flawed look at Ring ranked opponents for HWs at the time they fought them, Charles came out no.3 behind only Louis and Ali (who were miles ahead of everyone). Which I thought was crazy. Caveat is that a lot of them were smaller HWs, but they were still ranked in the division.

Tunney beat Dempsey twice. That far exceeds anything Charles accomplished.

In fact, not only would Charles fail to beat Dempsey, no one he ever faced would beat Dempsey. Not Louis, not Marciano, not Walcott. The level of talent dropped off quite a bit after the War.

I'd even rank Billy Conn over Charles at Heavyweight. True, Billy was actually a Light Heavyweight, but his performance against Louis and his stoppage of Pastor are greater than anything Charles achieved at the weight.

[QueensburyRules]

- -Consensus shows Tunney a great p4p fighter, but as a heavy he lacks the substance of a Marciano/Frazier and fortunate to catch a rusty Hollywoodized Dempsey and then survive the long count.

He made and kept his money and wits to move on to better things that makes him one up on the likes of Ali and Tyson in the game of life.

[billeau2]

- -Consensus shows Tunney a great p4p fighter, but as a heavy he lacks the substance of a Marciano/Frazier and fortunate to catch a rusty Hollywoodized Dempsey and then survive the long count.

He made and kept his money and wits to move on to better things that makes him one up on the likes of Ali and Tyson in the game of life.

I will translate: Your speaking in tongues again, and I have watched my naval enough today...you do not have to thank me, no I don't need the diapers, but thank you:

Tunney was not a natural heavyweight. Is that what you meant to say?

[Tom Cruise]

Tunney beat Dempsey twice. That far exceeds anything Charles accomplished.

In fact, not only would Charles fail to beat Dempsey, no one he ever faced would beat Dempsey. Not Louis, not Marciano, not Walcott. The level of talent dropped off quite a bit after the War.

I'd even rank Billy Conn over Charles at Heavyweight. True, Billy was actually a Light Heavyweight, but his performance against Louis and his stoppage of Pastor are greater than anything Charles achieved at the weight.

Conn getting knocked out by Louis is greater than beating Walcott twice?

I love Conn but ****ing hell man.

He also had a very solid list of contenders on his ledger, Elmer Ray, Joe Baksi, Rex Layne and many others. At my count his record vs ring ranked HWs was 15-6. To put that into context, only Louis and Ali had more wins, and when weighted with a points system (more points for higher ranked opp) only Louis and Ali came out ahead of him.

Now I’m not arguing he should be no.3 HW all time or anything like that, like you say the talent wasn’t there in his era, but he is definitely underrated at the weight.

BTW, I don’t rate Dempsey that highly. Certainly not enough to claim he was miles ahead of guys like Walcott or Marciano. Both of those fighters give him hell. Prime HW Charles with his versatility and toughness probably beats him.

[Rusty Tromboni]

I will translate: Your speaking in tongues again, and I have watched my naval enough today...you do not have to thank me, no I don't need the diapers, but thank you:

Tunney was not a natural heavyweight. Is that what you meant to say?

Tunney definitely was coming into his prime as a Heavyweight. He wasn't as hard-hitting at Light Heavyweight, where, ironically, he was mostly just a slugger.

Queenie is a bit odd. But he's mostly right.

He's wrong about the long-count. Only an idiot would say that saved Tunney. But Jack wasn't quite at his Toledo-best.

Still, I would put money on THAT Dempsey to beat pretty much everyone until Ali hit his stride right before exile.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Conn getting knocked out by Louis is greater than beating Walcott twice?

Uh...

Is that a joke?

Can you show me where Charles or Walcott EVER looked as good as Conn did that night? Can you show me when either man ever fought anyone as Louis in '41? Conn, who was 23 and still a natural Light Heavyweight.

Walcott would avenge those losses, BTW. To include by knockout, no less. Charles definitely didn't have Conn's beard or heart. He didn't have his wheels or bag of tricks, either. It seems his power was coming on par with Charles' best.

He also had a very solid list of contenders on his ledger, Elmer Ray, Joe Baksi, Rex Layne and many others. At my count his record vs ring ranked HWs was 15-6. To put that into context, only Louis and Ali had more wins, and when weighted with a points system (more points for higher ranked opp) only Louis and Ali came out ahead of him.

OK, so he fought a lot. So did Carnera. Carnera's record is a veritable list of "who's who".

Loughran fought a lot and won a lot, too. I NEVER see him on any Heavyweight lists. He's as consistent as anyone from the 70's onward, not named Larry Holmes (look it up) until the arrival of Wladimir Klitchko.

If you feel Charles is underrated, OK. But that era was particularly weak. (None of those guys was as good as Bob Pastor, for example). But in the world of the blind, the man with one eye is king.

BTW, I don’t rate Dempsey that highly. Certainly not enough to claim he was miles ahead of guys like Walcott or Marciano. Both of those fighters give him hell. Prime HW Charles with his versatility and toughness probably beats him.

Then you need to watch Dempsey fight. There's plenty of footage which has been refurbished. It's clear he's a full tier above any of them. Shorter punches. Better head movement. Quicker feet. Busier. Better punch selection. Better chin. Reckless, and a sucker for a persistent well-used jab, but that's not any of them. They'd get ****d.

[QueensburyRules]

BTW, I don’t rate Dempsey that highly. Certainly not enough to claim he was miles ahead of guys like Walcott or Marciano. Both of those fighters give him hell. Prime HW Charles with his versatility and toughness probably beats him.

- - Jack easily out pointed a Ez facsimile in Tommy Gibbons who was all defense to keep from getting KOed.

I rate Ez at his best in his title defenses high enough to possibly beat Dempsey, but Walcott gets KOed.

Possibly is not probably though. Had not Wills not turned down that title eliminator against Tunney and had one of the dozen attempts prior to fight Dempsey had come to fruition, the best being the $350K offer by Red Sox owner Frazee in 1920, we'd have more evidence and footage to go on.

Nonetheless, Jack one of the rare legends of The West cannot be denied.