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Do you hold Ali's 5 losses against his legacy?

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  • #41
    Originally posted by QueensburyRules View Post
    --- Ali came back at age 28.

    When I was 28 I was invincible in spite of serious motorcycle injuries.

    Ali was a gym rat and in his travels always found a gym to spar in and spread his gospel.

    I suggest physiologically you ain't genetically endowed to understand how an A grade physical specimen works. You make it sound like Ali suddenly turned into a washerwoman during suspension.

    Frazier was half blind with life threatening blood pressure problems and couldn't get licensed today, but he was genetically, mentally, and culturally endowed to overcome far more obstacles than Ali could ever conceive of.

    Time to get with the program.
    Being a professional athlete isn't a game of inches, it's a game of millimeters. The difference between a truly elite champion and a mere contender is usually so slight it's hard to tell them apart until you see them together. It's rare when a guy is head-and-shoulders above all the competition like RJJ was in his prime. Usually that difference is a lot less - the edge of a knife. And to tune and hone that edge most athletes need competition and an objective. That's why we've seen so many guys reach the top of the mountain only to slide back off - they lost that edge or Father Time took it away. It doesn't take much.

    It's hard to find comparisons because most comebacks are due to injuries. That has its own challenges but its own motivations to return. Ali simply had his livelihood taken away with no guarantee of getting it back for over 3 years. Mentally that may be much more difficult than returning from injury. It's one thing for a tennis player like Agassi to come back from drugs or LeMond to return to cycling after being shot. They had a goal and an endgame they could partially control. It's quite another to not even have any control on when/if you could return like Ali - and in a combat sport to boot.

    Here's what I do know. The guy who returned wasn't the same guy who was forced out. He didn't really move the same anymore. He didn't float like a butterfly any more. Probably stronger though and seemed to take a punch better. Of course, it could have helped create his legend too. 3 1/2 years of no damage may have been just the edge he needed to beat Foreman. Maybe his increased thickness helped withstand the punishment from Frazier. Or perhaps those guys are thoroughly embarrassed by a faster, quicker, sleeker Ali. I don't know what 3 1/2 years did to him but it did something. He wasn't washed up at 28 but no doubt that he changed significantly during that time off.

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    • #42
      I always admired Frazier for his ATG will to win, tenacity. However he was a limited fighter offensively. He had little coordination in the right hand and relied on his hook wayyy too much. He had huge difficulty putting combinations together to the head with both hands. He was all left hook. However this along with that will to win was enough to beat most. He would have his moments with prime Ali but in the end would be outpointed.

      Did you know Frazier never knocked an pro opponent out or down with his right hand? I don’t think any other hwt champion holds this dubious record.

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      • #43
        --- Smokin' Joe hit Ali at will with a so called uncoordinated right Hand is it now?

        Guess Ali couldn't handle limited, smallish heavies with uncoordinated right hands, the glaring weakness of Ali.

        Btw, after two rust removers, Ali stated he felt stronger than ever going into Frazier I with no plans for any more footie monkey biz.

        By then Ali had most of the youth and press in his side and was mentally more empowered and motivated than ever.

        This fight probably would've naturally occurred circa 68-69 with Ali more shopworn mentally at the beginning of his legal struggles than the end with so many jumping in to support.

        Cus even made a doc to fund Ali before the Joe fight where he nicks up Ali in an impromptu spar in the Frazier style he stated would beat Ali.

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        • #44
          Frazier’s only real success landing right hands was to the body which is a much more reachable stationary target.

          Joe himself stated he had a poor right hand. He worked on it leading into Manila but if you watch that fight Joe had little success with that punch to the head. His bout with Quarry prior to Manila his right looked better cutting Jerry about the eyes. However Jerry was little more than a heavy bag by this point in the fight.

          Again Frazier I believe is the only hwt champion never to knock out or down any opponent with his right hand.

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          • #45
            --- Joe was a converted lefty fighting with a deformed crook in that hand from a serious broken arm in his youth.

            Had he not been converted, his right woulda been much better to leave you moaning about his deformed left not being up to snuff.

            Ali almost never went to the body, pulled back in straight lines, and gave up too many rds fleeing from his smaller opponents.

            He'd be a cruiser today with you moaning he's too small for heavy.

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            • #46
              RE: Frazier's right hand

              Before Ali-Frazier III George Benton worked with Joe a lot on being able to throw a decent right. If memory serves - and it's hazy on this point - I think Frazier had a left hand injury and had to train more as a righty. So somewhere around the 4th or 5th round Frazier threw a right that popped Ali. Ali was startled and told Joe something like "you don't have a right", to which Joe replied by popping Ali with the right again. That turned that fight and Frazier won the next few rounds (until his eye closed and Ali dominated late).

              So he didn't have much of a right until later in his career....then it got a bit better.

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              • #47
                Originally posted by HOUDINI563 View Post
                Ghost is astonishing ignorant. How biased or ****** can a person be?
                Again, learn how to properly quote someone on a forum if you are going to mention their name. Just because I don't bow down at the alter of Ali doesn't mean I'm being biased. You are a mere spectator, and not a very bright one at that. I've been around boxing most of my life, as a fan, as a trainer of fighters, and as a participant.

                Originally posted by Granath View Post
                Yet many of your examples were post-religious conversion...you're not very good at this are you? This is like shooting fish in a barrel. But go on with your grand conspiracy theories.



                Who am I an alt for? Every time some 'tard doesn't like what I say they accuse me of being an alt. I'm really eager to find out who I'm the supposed alter-ego for.
                You have offered nothing in the way of non-biased regurgitation. Your feeble brain was convinced at an early age that anyone who declares themselves "The Greatest" on television must be so. It must be tough going through life as a sheep.
                Last edited by GhostofDempsey; 01-30-2019, 02:18 PM.

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                • #48
                  And you know nothing. Pretty sad ignorant and toothless!

                  I’ve followed boxing closely since 1970. Watched all the top hwts from the 70’s live and in person as well as attended the Ali-Norton third bout in 76. You have a very skewed understanding of boxing history.

                  Also remember you are the uneducated one. My accomplishments both in terms of education and economics would dwarf the vast majority. Based upon your posts you would be in that majority.

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                  • #49
                    Regarding Frazier’s right hand it had little or nothing to do with his third bout with Ali. Yes he was working on it prior but during the bout it only surfaced on a few occasions.

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by QueensburyRules View Post
                      --- Ali was 28 when went into a standard training camp and was somewhat gifted with a 2rd cut tko over Quarry.

                      Ali got more quick cut stoppages than anyone back then, but no matter, it was an easy welcoming warmup.

                      A short rest and camp later, he had a grueling 15 rds against Bonavena who had the awkward physicality that always troubled Ali to work him harder than he liked.

                      See Rudy Lubbers as a glaring example.

                      You say I'm not an elite athlete, yet know nothing of me. I was routinely posting TDF prologue speeds in the rugged matching terrain of my home town.

                      Sans any training whatsoever in track or running, at age 29 on a dare with a bet, I ran a 10k in 45 min. I can guarantee I could step in without training at the end of Alis training camp and beat him too.

                      I know a guy who was a regular spar for Ali, and he held another job and never turned pro.

                      As a kid, Ali spoke to us kids and was quite impressive, but he and his fans hung on too long beyond any common sense.
                      Load of crap. the bolded. Ali loved the martial arts and often traded off with many of the best martial artists of the day... They all had a similar opinion of what it was like to have a spar with Ali and let me tell you something, I doubt you could touch him. And I am not saying you were not some *******jack... But you need to do some research about what it was like to get in the ring with Ali...heres a hint, he was the nicest sweetest guy for most of the rounds but would always pick a spot and show you a just a taste of what he could do...and it was terrifying to the likes of men like Jim Kelly, who was fast as lightening and had a wingspan... Terrifying.

                      It was like getting hit with a toilet brush but your legs were gone, you were frozen, and your brain was going "what the fvk?

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