Do you hold Ali's 5 losses against his legacy?

[HOUDINI563]

Beating Foreman was a Herculean effort in a fight most everyone felt he would be stopped and perhaps seriously injured.

Post Foreman he koed top five contender Lyle, stopped No 1 contender Frazier in a life and death encounter reminiscent of Jeffries-Sharkey at Coney Island, beat No 1 contender Norton in a close chess match and defeated top three contender Shavers over 15 rounds. Hardly chicken feed.

[GhostofDempsey]

None of Ali’s fights were fixed. You need definitive proof for statements such as this.

Ali in fact is a greater fighter by coming back x2 against top opposition after losing vs Frazier and Norton. It’s a mark of ATG status.

He should not have been in the ring for his last THREE losses. Ali was showing visible effects of neurological issues by the late 70’s.

Of course some of his fights were fixed. Your blind allegiance never ceases to amaze. Norton got robbed at least once and many say twice, as did Shavers, Young, Chuvalo II and Doug Jones. Two fixes against Liston, the shenanigans with his gloves against Cooper, being allowed to push down on shorter opponents head all through fights and never be warned or penalized, beating washed up has-beens like Moore, Patterson 2x, Cleveland Williams and Folley.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

.no..

3 losses came after Ali was totally shot

1 loss came from prime HOF norton

1 loss came from a prime ATG Frazier


I got more respect for guys like Ali, Oscar, etc that fought everyone available, took some Losses but never tried to dodge or “marinade” a fight/opponent

[Granath]

Of course some of his fights were fixed. Your blind allegiance never ceases to amaze. Norton got robbed at least once and many say twice, as did Shavers, Young, Chuvalo II and Doug Jones. Two fixes against Liston, the shenanigans with his gloves against Cooper, being allowed to push down on shorter opponents head all through fights and never be warned or penalized, beating washed up has-beens like Moore, Patterson 2x, Cleveland Williams and Folley.

Repeating it doesn't make it any more true. Sources needed.

I do find it ironic that you suggest that Shavers got robbed. The scoring in that fight was broadcasted live after each round and there wasn't any outcry about it then.

[GhostofDempsey]

Repeating it doesn't make it any more true. Sources needed.

I do find it ironic that you suggest that Shavers got robbed. The scoring in that fight was broadcasted live after each round and there wasn't any outcry about it then.

No one has sources for robberies and fixes, you already know that. It was in the sport's interest as a whole to push Ali to the top and keep him there. Money to be made on hyping "The Greatest".

[Granath]

No one has sources for robberies and fixes, you already know that. It was in the sport's interest as a whole to push Ali to the top and keep him there. Money to be made on hyping "The Greatest".

Let me get this straight....it was in the sport's interest to push a black ****** member of the Nation of Islam who changed his name and refused to be drafted to the top of the sport?

AAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....oh God, thank you for the laugh.

[GhostofDempsey]

Let me get this straight....it was in the sport's interest to push a black ****** member of the Nation of Islam who changed his name and refused to be drafted to the top of the sport?

AAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....oh God, thank you for the laugh.

No, it was in the sport's best interest to push a charismatic, good looking, slick talker who could get fans to tune in, whether they loved him or hated him. He captured the world's interest and guys like Cosell and other networks loved it, it got ratings and it made money for the dark unbelly of the sport as well. Are you really that naïve?

[GhostofDempsey]

Let me get this straight....it was in the sport's interest to push a black ****** member of the Nation of Islam who changed his name and refused to be drafted to the top of the sport?

AAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....oh God, thank you for the laugh.

There have been many articles printed on the gifts Ali received over his career. I didn't just pull this out of my ass.

http://tss.ib.tv/boxing/articles-of-...d-the-greatest

http://realcombatmedia.com/2013/07/r...n-world-title/

Ali himself said during an interview with Mark Cronin in October of 1976: "Kenny’s (Norton) style is too difficult for me. I can’t beat him, and I sure don’t want to fight him again. I honestly thought he beat me in Yankee Stadium, but the judges gave it to me, and I’m grateful to them."

The January 1998 issue of Boxing Monthly ranked Ali-Norton III as the fifth most disputed title fight decision in history.

[Granath]

There have been many articles printed on the gifts Ali received over his career. I didn't just pull this out of my ass.

http://tss.ib.tv/boxing/articles-of-...d-the-greatest

http://realcombatmedia.com/2013/07/r...n-world-title/

Ali himself said during an interview with Mark Cronin in October of 1976: "Kenny’s (Norton) style is too difficult for me. I can’t beat him, and I sure don’t want to fight him again. I honestly thought he beat me in Yankee Stadium, but the judges gave it to me, and I’m grateful to them."

The January 1998 issue of Boxing Monthly ranked Ali-Norton III as the fifth most disputed title fight decision in history.

No, you are pulling this out of your ass. Linking to 2 articles by nobodies who think that a particular decision could have gone the other way 30 years ago is nothing. Let's break it down.

No one suggested that Ali dominated Jones. The fight was close. Yet all 3 judges scored it for Ali (Clay, at the time). What isn't in dispute is that Ali won the last two rounds to pull it out. Jones had it and Ali took it away from him. API had it Jones, UPI had it Clay.

The fight against Young wasn't even close if the ref had scored it properly. Young kept sticking his head outside the ropes which is a knockdown by rules but it was only called once. Here's an article the next day about the fight rather than some retcon 30 years later: https://news.google.com/newspapers?i...my+young&hl=en

As for Norton, again it was close. Ali didn't think he won it but again it was a UD and the API also had Ali winning.

Ali won a lot of close fights. He was a master of the end-of-round flurry and he won a lot of fights late, especially later in his career. But rather than just say Ali somehow pulled out the close decisions, you want to make it some kind of (unfounded) grand conspiracy with no proof whatsoever. I just love how you think "The Man" wanted a Nation of Islam, Christianity-rejecting, draft-dodging black man as their champion.

[chrisJS]

I think the Frazier series elevated both fighters so the losses there don't really go against either guy. I think Norton beat Ali twice. The first fight, obviously, but I felt the third was nearly as clear with the closest and IMO only "either way" fight being fight II.

It's been a while since I watched the Young, Jones or Shavers bouts but remember feeling the Shavers decision was fine, the Young one should have gone the other day (I felt Norton fought Young better though still had problems) and the Jones one could have gone against Clay. I don't think any of these fights were during Ali's prime though. The Thrilla took out the rest of what was left of his prime.