Wlad–Chagaev & the lineal HW title

[QueensburyRules]

--- 48 and 0 ain't the same as 49 and 0 sweetie.

Valuev made 48-0 as well and would have Holmesy fleeing for his life as well.

End of the day, all you got is opinions and elbows. Statistical analysis and timeline comparisons are beyond your Eggbert comprehension.

[HOUDINI563]

Difference of course is Valuev was just a contender. Holmes the worlds hwt champion. There is a reason Valuev is never rated as anything while Holmes is always rated top ten ATG. It’s the skill, heart, will to win that the giant never exhibited at any point in his career.

[QueensburyRules]

--- Holmesy never once beat a standing title holder who won his title in the ring.

He'd be ducking Valuev just like he did all Titlists until he fell apart in his 49th fight.

[Granath]

--- Nah, that was you screeching to a stop not realizing Wepner who was easily dismissed by a 20 yr old novice Foreman took Ali into the 15th rd.

Yeah, figures you never heard of the injustices Foreman endured in the lead up to the rumble.

Not the least was a fast count of a champ who had never been knocked down. Ali was down for 30 sec after the stoppage and had to be helped to his corner he was so depleted.

Keep them easy fast balls comin' in my sweet spot. Luvs me my tape measure Homers!

Hey, I agree with you about Holmes (obviously). But there's no controversy about Ali/Foreman and there's no rumor of a rematch either. There's no fast count. There's no ducking. There's just Big George getting whooped by Ali.

Foreman himself has said that styles make fights and that he'd beat Frazier 100 times out of 100, Ali would beat him the same but Ali/Frazier would always go down to the wire. Big George didn't want any part of Ali after Zaire as Ali had gotten so deep in George's psyche it would take a decade to get him out again. The whole Foreman Fights Five debacle - which is some great viewing on YouTube for anyone who hasn't seen it - shows how mentally screwed up George was. It culminated with George having a dehydration-fueled religious experience against Jimmy Young.

[HOUDINI563]

Holmes was the worlds hwt champion after beating No 1 contender Norton and the unretired Ali. There was no one else he needed to beat to prove himself the rightful champion and there was no other contender with Holmes credentials. Again he is rated top 5 hwt champion by most who know what they are talking about.

[billeau2]

--- Holmesy never once beat a standing title holder who won his title in the ring.

He'd be ducking Valuev just like he did all Titlists until he fell apart in his 49th fight.

Who did Holmes duck?

[DreamFighter]

--- Holmesy never once beat a standing title holder who won his title in the ring.

He'd be ducking Valuev just like he did all Titlists until he fell apart in his 49th fight.

holmes didnt duck apart from perhaps in his last defence, when the LHW champ was seen as a soft touch.

[QueensburyRules]

Hey, I agree with you about Holmes (obviously). But there's no controversy about Ali/Foreman and there's no rumor of a rematch either. There's no fast count. There's no ducking. There's just Big George getting whooped by Ali.

Foreman himself has said that styles make fights and that he'd beat Frazier 100 times out of 100, Ali would beat him the same but Ali/Frazier would always go down to the wire. Big George didn't want any part of Ali after Zaire as Ali had gotten so deep in George's psyche it would take a decade to get him out again. The whole Foreman Fights Five debacle - which is some great viewing on YouTube for anyone who hasn't seen it - shows how mentally screwed up George was. It culminated with George having a dehydration-fueled religious experience against Jimmy Young.

--- Espn timed it 8-9 seconds.

When Clayton waved it off, George was up.

Difficult to deal with the deliberate obfuscation here. In the Nov74 Playboy interview Ali mentions a $5mil apiece offer for a rematch in Indonesia. In the 5 man exhibition that Ali attended and Cosell announced, Ali went full hysteria screaming George would never get a rematch. Doc Ferdie told the team a rematch would damage Ali more than he was the first time and ruled it out.

Finally, George was on the freaking cover of Sports Illustrated demanding a rematch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why must I constantly tie bibs and cut up everyone's steak here?

Like who did Holmesy duck?

What, never heard of the WBA champs and later the WBC guy replacing him?

Really?

???????????

[Granath]

--- Espn timed it 8-9 seconds.

When Clayton waved it off, George was up.

Difficult to deal with the deliberate obfuscation here. In the Nov74 Playboy interview Ali mentions a $5mil apiece offer for a rematch in Indonesia. In the 5 man exhibition that Ali attended and Cosell announced, Ali went full hysteria screaming George would never get a rematch. Doc Ferdie told the team a rematch would damage Ali more than he was the first time and ruled it out.

Finally, George was on the freaking cover of Sports Illustrated demanding a rematch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why must I constantly tie bibs and cut up everyone's steak here?

Like who did Holmesy duck?

What, never heard of the WBA champs and later the WBC guy replacing him?

Really?

???????????

Here's a quote directly from Big George himself in an article from a few years ago:

When this reporter ventured to suggest that Ali may have avoided a rematch, Foreman instantly disagreed.

“Ali was the bravest man I ever shared the ring with and it all came down to the issue we had with **** Sadler,” said Foreman, before marginally contradicting that statement. “Strange things can happen in boxing matches, that fighters never mention, and I may have caught him with one punch that he wasn’t willing to take again.

“A really heavy body shot bent Ali over at the waist and it was obvious he was hurt. When the bell rang to end that particular round he gave me a look and I remember thinking to myself, this is the bravest man I’ve ever faced. Despite chasing the rematch I asked myself, many times, if I truly wanted to get back in the ring with him.

“If Ali was a touch scared of fighting me again – I was glad of it.”

Foreman has said multiple times that styles make fights and that Ali would beat him every time, while he would beat Frazier every time. Personally, I don't believe that. I think George could have beaten Ali after the last Frazier fight in '76 as the Frazier fight took everything great Ali had left. So in the fall of '76 about the time when Ali took on Ken Norton, I think George might have won a rematch.

But Ali didn't duck Foreman and it's not even in dispute. Big George took almost a year and a half to try to set his mind right. He had the slug-fest against Lyle in March, beat Frazier in June, took on a couple of other guys and lost to Jimmy Young in March the following year. There really wasn't much time to schedule a rematch once George came back to boxing before the loss to Young and his religious experience.

But you know more than George himself, right?

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Now as far as Holmes goes, I'm surprised anyone would try to make the claim that Holmes DIDN'T duck guys. It's well-known that he actively tried avoiding difficult fights as he tried to equal Marciano's record. In the HW thread I have a list of guys he's ducked, including Page, a rematch with Witherspoon, Thomas, etc. Heck, he gave up a belt to duck Page. Unlike every other long-time HW champion in history, Holmes' record is dotted with many missed fights and far more fights against inexperienced guys (sub-20 wins). It's incredible how many guys he fought who didn't have any business fighting for the HW crown at that stage of their careers.

[QueensburyRules]

--- I gave the scenario in the immediate aftermath of the Rumble: FACT!

Seems you don't know George very well. Like Dempsey, Louis, Rocky, George was very gracious with fighters and fond remembrances of opponents. He also has a habit of backtracking what was said previously depending on his mood. That teddy bear attitude has made him lovable in the class of aforementioned fighters and earned countless millions more outside the ring.

Had he not comeback to boxing with a new attitude and discipline, he'd never be thought of fondly at all, nor in the HOF.