Wlad–Chagaev & the lineal HW title

[Marchegiano]

You are just demonstrating knowledge without wisdom the majority of the time.

I am clearly talking about how the successor of a Monarch comes to be in relation to a HW Lineal coming to be. A Monarch doens't require an usurper or challenger to be succeeded it can simply get passed down especially in recent history. A lineal HW needs to be defeated to pass the title on aka "beat the man that beat the man".

I highly doubt we are going to see Prince Charles scrap with the Queen but that's the only way anyone is taking that title off Fury.

You can refer to you knowledge of history again and again but historical analogies only have a cetain amount of relevance to a conversation about current affairs anyway.

Yeah, and monarch get crowns instead of belts. That's a nominal difference that doesn't speak to the point of having precedence and tradition for how succession is handled.

Chuckles needs to wait for the Queen to step down or die if he wants it without a fight. Joshua can too if he likes. Either way, gotta get in that throneroom/ring to be the man don't you?


You're talking about a historical title. I'm explaining how it got all the "rules" no one has written down and is not codified. The informal rules to lineal. No different then my explanation of informal weight divisions.

There's no analogy when I say Figg claimed supremacy, retirements have never ended the lineal, retired lineal champions can strip current ones if they chose, weight division were informal and lead to HW, contenders are decided by the current lineal, and the vacancy goes to whoever the current champion says it does.

Champion's Prerogative is a lineal tradition not a codified rule. This is how we got here. You can tell me there's alternatives, other ways of seeing lineal, but that's going to go back to a source like Nat Fleischer at best and Nat himself pulls his authority from the same place I do; Egan and such.

If your understanding of lineal was handed to you by Ring that understanding came to Ring by way of Boxiana, Pugilistica, and Fistinia.

This is what we have, this is how we explain things like Marvin Hart being elected champion by Jim Jeffries. Jim could do that because it's the way the champion had conducted themselves for over a hundred years by that point.

Why does Fitzsimmons fight Peter Maher for the title, then Tom Sharkey, also for the title and loses, then he fights Corbett for the title and is considered champion from that point on?

That's all post Sullivan and pre-sanctioning body.


What were they doing? Making **** up as they go? There's a reason Corbett could retire, announce a successor to his title, go into Hollywood acting for a full year, strip his successor's entire line of succession, and then lose his title one of the successors in his first showing back.

What did Tom Johnson do to Mendoza's reign in the 1790s? Pushed it back four years in a losing effort to maintain supremacy didn't he?

And we see it again in the very next generation with Hart and Jeffries don't we?

And who is the first champion to ever be stripped by a sanctioning body?

Well my ****, moving right along in history we see Jack Johnson, not even a full generation later, being stripped by the IBU for fighting Jim Johnson, another black man, in 1913.

What? 1913, but Johnson's reign ends in 1915 though doesn't it?

A sanctioning body can not strip a lineal because they don't like who he fought. Why is that? Scroll up, done covered it. Champion's Prerogative innit?

Now then, how do I explain this without leaving room for argument and without mentioning Tom Johnson? Tom is the first man to flex his champion status in retirement. Tom sets the precedence for the Jims. If I chose someone else, let's say 1870s Jem Mace, then I'd still have to explain why Jem thought Jem could do the things he did. Explaining one leads to the next, starting at the beginning answers everything.


also, I expect youse to know 20th century history.

[Jax teller]

Yeah, and monarch get crowns instead of belts. That's a nominal difference that doesn't speak to the point of having precedence and tradition for how succession is handled.

Chuckles needs to wait for the Queen to step down or die if he wants it without a fight. Joshua can too if he likes. Either way, gotta get in that throneroom/ring to be the man don't you?


You're talking about a historical title. I'm explaining how it got all the "rules" no one has written down and is not codified. The informal rules to lineal. No different then my explanation of informal weight divisions.

There's no analogy when I say Figg claimed supremacy, retirements have never ended the lineal, retired lineal champions can strip current ones if they chose, weight division were informal and lead to HW, contenders are decided by the current lineal, and the vacancy goes to whoever the current champion says it does.

Champion's Prerogative is a lineal tradition not a codified rule. This is how we got here. You can tell me there's alternatives, other ways of seeing lineal, but that's going to go back to a source like Nat Fleischer at best and Nat himself pulls his authority from the same place I do; Egan and such.

If your understanding of lineal was handed to you by Ring that understanding came to Ring by way of Boxiana, Pugilistica, and Fistinia.

This is what we have, this is how we explain things like Marvin Hart being elected champion by Jim Jeffries. Jim could do that because it's the way the champion had conducted themselves for over a hundred years by that point.

Why does Fitzsimmons fight Peter Maher for the title, then Tom Sharkey, also for the title and loses, then he fights Corbett for the title and is considered champion from that point on?

That's all post Sullivan and pre-sanctioning body.


What were they doing? Making **** up as they go? There's a reason Corbett could retire, announce a successor to his title, go into Hollywood acting for a full year, strip his successor's entire line of succession, and then lose his title one of the successors in his first showing back.

What did Tom Johnson do to Mendoza's reign in the 1790s? Pushed it back four years in a losing effort to maintain supremacy didn't he?

And we see it again in the very next generation with Hart and Jeffries don't we?

And who is the first champion to ever be stripped by a sanctioning body?

Well my ****, moving right along in history we see Jack Johnson, not even a full generation later, being stripped by the IBU for fighting Jim Johnson, another black man, in 1913.

What? 1913, but Johnson's reign ends in 1915 though doesn't it?

A sanctioning body can not strip a lineal because they don't like who he fought. Why is that? Scroll up, done covered it. Champion's Prerogative innit?

Now then, how do I explain this without leaving room for argument and without mentioning Tom Johnson? Tom is the first man to flex his champion status in retirement. Tom sets the precedence for the Jims. If I chose someone else, let's say 1870s Jem Mace, then I'd still have to explain why Jem thought Jem could do the things he did. Explaining one leads to the next, starting at the beginning answers everything.


also, I expect youse to know 20th century history.

Why can you not understand the difference between having to defeat someone to take there social position or being gifted it? It really isn't that complicated and you do claim to be intelligent.

If the lineal status is ellected by the current Champion (which it is not) or taken by force (which it is) then who gave it to Wlad in the first place? Lennox didn't pick him out and he was the last lineal.

If we're going to carry on this conversation can you list out these unwritten rules or requirements that you beleive so I can see where you are coming from? (I don't want a names and dates of who made each case, just the concise rules).

[Marchegiano]

Why can you not understand the difference between having to defeat someone to take there social position or being gifted it? It really isn't that complicated and you do claim to be intelligent.

If the lineal status is ellected by the current Champion (which it is not) or taken by force (which it is) then who gave it to Wlad in the first place? Lennox didn't pick him out and he was the last lineal.

If we're going to carry on this conversation can you list out these unwritten rules or requirements that you beleive so I can see where you are coming from? (I don't want a names and dates of who made each case, just the concise rules).

Firstly, no I don't claim to be intelligent. I claim we're all dumb****s who need help from actual intelligent and educated people. I don't write history, I tell you about what is written.

Just to be clear, that's your own A-B mentality at work. Calling youse morons does not equate to elevating myself above moronic ****.

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Because you're trying to force a nominal difference in procedure to equate to a total lack of analogues. The Monarch does not have to fight in a ring.....well ****....no one here believes that's what I was claiming do they? No one read the Queen is Queen of the same nation as those who were monarch prior to a succession crisis and thought I meant she fought with her fists for it did they?

Nope, the Queen is Queen over a lineage she does not have direct succession to but rather succession approved of by who? The people.

So the Queen had to consolidate power differently then the champ, big ****in' deal, that doesn't change the fact that the Queen is Queen of Alfred's nation, not a new one, not a new lineage, same damn line of monarchs. There is one lineage, it does not stop just because folks needed to figure out who carries it on next. They figured it out, came to an agreement, and set to carrying on the lineage.

------

We gave it to Wlad. The number one rule to lineal is popularity contest. If the fanbase claims X is lineal it does not matter what the champion says, this is also covered in the history I left for youse.

We have stripped a current lineal and handed it to a man because we did not like the lineal's conduct in the past. Lineal is our title. It is the people's champion. Claims and all that jazz, every tradition, every bit of history I can drum up, all of it goes out the window if the fans says so.

If you all got Joshua is Lineal real popular and ESPN and DAZN and **** were saying it then I'd call him lineal too, but, you didn't so I don't. Tyson claimed it, Ring did not dispute it, and Showtime blasted it across the world. Most people think of Fury as lineal so I do. Simple as.

So first and foremost, probably Ring driven, but the fans themselves crowned Wlad and at this point that argument is done and over.

Secondly, are you sure Lennox never claimed Wlad was the best active champion from Chagaev to Fury? Had he that's all you need.

It isn't until after the first succession crisis that we even invented belts. When a lineal crowns a new lineal they don't just say " Here you go bud, you're the new lineal" it's about supremacy. When the current champion says he is no longer the greatest another is that's when they pass the torch, notice the first title transfer I spoke to about Figg and Whitaker. That way of becoming champion predates man who beat the man.

So all we need is Lennox claiming Wlad is the best and we're done here, there is no argument.

Can Lennox's old ass come back and strip everyone since? Corbett did. Since Lennox it's been Wlad and Fury right? Let's throw Josh in just to make you happy. Well, Corbett stripped Maher, Fitzs, and Sharkey. Been done son.

[QueensburyRules]

--- Marche, impressive historical context sans logic construct.

Weight divisions are definitive easily understood by any school girl.

Lineal is ethereal with the most definitive history being "The man who beat the MAN."

As ambiguous an open ended statement as can possibly be constructed. How's about making the sole definitive rule whoever I deign to anoint the lineal champ, for a modestly substantial fee of course.

Greatness ain't ever free!

[billeau2]

The key point is let the LHW dere to try. It takes lots of courage to try. It takes lots of courage and heart to unify putting you belt(s) on the line.
Be the guy, collect his belt(s), call the shots and defend the crown

That's the hallmark of a champion. One of the reasons I don't respect fury today is his inability to defend his titles. I don't rate him that high until he wins a belt and defend it.

A great Light Heavy in my opinion will understand that the heavyweight is an open division and will try to fight up. Tunney is a great example, regarding Dempsey. As great a fighter as Gene Tunney was... He was on the short list for the greatest Light Heavy along with a few others... and most people think of him regarding his performance as a heavyweight against Dempsey.

Fury has a lot of baggage. One always has to consider that he can "go off the reservation" very quickly... I think he tries to keep it together but yes, he needs to be more consistent in the years to come. When he puts it together he is fantastic because the skills have been imprinted at such an early age with him.

[billeau2]

--- Marche, impressive historical context sans logic construct.

Weight divisions are definitive easily understood by any school girl.

Lineal is ethereal with the most definitive history being "The man who beat the MAN."

As ambiguous an open ended statement as can possibly be constructed. How's about making the sole definitive rule whoever I deign to anoint the lineal champ, for a modestly substantial fee of course.

Greatness ain't ever free!

Not ethereal at all, yes ambiguous, which is a good thing. Ambiguity can be a great thing. Open ended systems, as a general rule, are frequent, and are much more functional than closed systems.

Any school girl would also know and understand the concept of an open division...It is only you who have problems with this concept and who need less ambiguity than "the man who beat the man."

And I will AGAIN give an example: person A wants to know "is this art a Japanese KoRyu?" Person B : "From feudal times does the art have succession?" If so Yes. If succession was broken no.

See? Just as open ended, simple and old as the concept of the best has to beat the best... And I assure you that the answer to the question of KoRyu is not lacking in importance: Financial, social and historical authenticity rest on this simple, open ended rule of succession.

You are, far as I can tell, incapable of properly evaluating the subsequent results of a tradition that is simple, authentic, easy to assess, and which puts the power in the hands of the fans. Would it make you feel better if there were a list of hoops to jump through? and fees to pay to some organization which holds the hoops?

[Laligalaliga]

A great Light Heavy in my opinion will understand that the heavyweight is an open division and will try to fight up. Tunney is a great example, regarding Dempsey. As great a fighter as Gene Tunney was... He was on the short list for the greatest Light Heavy along with a few others... and most people think of him regarding his performance as a heavyweight against Dempsey.

Fury has a lot of baggage. One always has to consider that he can "go off the reservation" very quickly... I think he tries to keep it together but yes, he needs to be more consistent in the years to come. When he puts it together he is fantastic because the skills have been imprinted at such an early age with him.

The only way to create legacy in this sport of ours is consistency. In as much as am not the best fan of wilder, I don't hate him either. I rate AJ ahead of him. He had the courage to defend his belts, that's the altitude of a champion. The only problem I have with him is no courage for unification. Hez only willing to unify only when all these dollars are to his advantage before he can put the green belt on the line. That aside, Fury didn't have such courage to defend the belts he won in a single fight.

Every challenger just want to talk about sharing formulae, percentage and all that forgetting their are world titles on the line and someone has to drop those belts to make that fight.

He should be handsomely reward for such manificient courage and heart.

[Marchegiano]

--- Marche, impressive historical context sans logic construct.

Weight divisions are definitive easily understood by any school girl.

Lineal is ethereal with the most definitive history being "The man who beat the MAN."

As ambiguous an open ended statement as can possibly be constructed. How's about making the sole definitive rule whoever I deign to anoint the lineal champ, for a modestly substantial fee of course.

Greatness ain't ever free!

To say it in vague and quick terms:

In the beginning a champion would do things and explain he could because he was champion. After sometime the exploits and adventures of the champions of the past caused expectations in the public. It became you must do this because you are champion or we will strip you of being champion and name another.

It's a lot of history to cover and I've not yet found time to do it.

It is because of what happened in 1790 that we have expectations and acceptable powers in 1890 and because those expectation existed in 1890 by 1990 they were already being used for decades to explain who would be considered champion if not for sanctioning body interference.

acts becomes expectations, expectations becomes traditions.

[billeau2]

The only way to create legacy in this sport of ours is consistency. In as much as am not the best fan of wilder, I don't hate him either. I rate AJ ahead of him. He had the courage to defend his belts, that's the altitude of a champion. The only problem I have with him is no courage for unification. Hez only willing to unify only when all these dollars are to his advantage before he can put the green belt on the line. That aside, Fury didn't have such courage to defend the belts he won in a single fight.

Every challenger just want to talk about sharing formulae, percentage and all that forgetting their are world titles on the line and someone has to drop those belts to make that fight.

He should be handsomely reward for such manificient courage and heart.

Fighters want to fight Lalig. I well remember in my martial arts fighting days, I knew I was not a fighter, i would get in there like the rest of the club (we were a fighting club) but, most of the guys loved to fight, the adrenaline, etc. While the adrenal high was nice, I would always hope that I didn't have to fight lol! I was scared until it started, then I was fine! But these guys loves the build up...the displays, etc.

My point here is that it is management that tells these guys when they can, and cannot engage. Despite what is said here I guarantee that AJ, Wilder and Fury would all be happy to settle things! And I also think they all believe they would win.

Your point is precisely why the lineal matters... The fans can call for unification, for a situation where there is a champ with no BS. The more the fans demand, under the provisions of the lineal, a unification process, the more the other alphabet soup matters.

[Laligalaliga]

Fighters want to fight Lalig. I well remember in my martial arts fighting days, I knew I was not a fighter, i would get in there like the rest of the club (we were a fighting club) but, most of the guys loved to fight, the adrenaline, etc. While the adrenal high was nice, I would always hope that I didn't have to fight lol! I was scared until it started, then I was fine! But these guys loves the build up...the displays, etc.

My point here is that it is management that tells these guys when they can, and cannot engage. Despite what is said here I guarantee that AJ, Wilder and Fury would all be happy to settle things! And I also think they all believe they would win.

Your point is precisely why the lineal matters... The fans can call for unification, for a situation where there is a champ with no BS. The more the fans demand, under the provisions of the lineal, a unification process, the more the other alphabet soup matters.

Am just waiting to see how thing happen in the next few months.
Hoping for an exciting 2019 for boxing family.