Wlad–Chagaev & the lineal HW title

[QueensburyRules]

--- Fights were always hard to make starting 4 centuries ago. Fighters had to have backers who don't relish losing their wad on an obvious mismatch.

AJ comports himself better than most historical champs and has unified more belts and titles than most.

Get over it, Deyonce fights 95% TBAs and a couple of fighters damaged, one needing ol'Timers blood pressure meds, and the other mentally deranged probably needing strong meds as well.

If Haymon wants the bout in his crooked jurisdiction, then he needs to pay AJ the kings ransom he's already making.

Time for American weak sisters to put up or start a quilting club...pitiable they are in the heavy division.

[Marchegiano]

Let's go back to the very beginning of English boxing. Figg is our first champion correct? How did that happen? Figg toured England claiming to be the best and allowed any man to challenge him. Contrary to some lazy reporting we do have record of him boxing Ned Sutton in Captain Godfrey's book. Figg was considered a "slaughterer". It was what it sounds like, ye olden talk for puncher.

Ok, now comes in a fella whose name has been lost to time. Some lazy reporters may have claimed his name is Tito, it isn't, that comes from a game. The Venetian Gondolier is called Gondolier because as far as the English were concerned that was his name. So, maybe it was just a dude from Veneto named Gondolier, but, most of us just assume his name was lost in translation and Gondolier probably reflects his job outside of punching

The Gondolier reckons he can lick Figg. In fact he reckon the English don't even know proper boxing. Figg answers his challenger with a challenge himself. Figg says Figg is no longer the greatest pugilist in England and even though he'd willing fight The Gondolier if The Gondolier really wanted to prove himself to the English he'd have to fight Figg student Bob Whittaker.

Bob and Gondo get it on. This is the first international fight recorded on English soil. There isn't much to say about the actual fight except that Bob used a technique called 'flopping". Is what it sounds like, when Gondo would throw a punch Bob would roll with it and drop to the ground ending the round.

This worked pretty well for Bob. There are conflicting reports, all of them English reports, about the end. Some claim Gondo just quit all pissed off Bob kept flopping because in Veneto that was illegal. Others claim Bob wore the ol' boy out and punched him square in the belly and grounded the Venetian. The only thing I can say about either is outside of the claim in the Bob Whittaker story as told by Egan I don't know of any Venetian rules set, however, if we are to believe the claim about Venetian rules then we must believe the Venetian is used to body shots as Egan also claims they did not punch to the face or head, only about the body and chest. This claim might have something to do with Christian sensibilities, boxing was banned specifically because it disfigures the face which is the image of God because we are made in his image and since disfiguring an image of God is blasphemy as is boxing. Not hitting to the face, no problem with the Church....I got distracted, sorry.

It may interest some to know in the version of events where the Gondolier quits he also curses England. I don't remember exactly, but to the effect of " Curse you England, Her people don't know what boxing is and will never give any foreign man a fair fight" which I reckon is kind of funny today. England, America, and maybe Germany are probably the most accused nations on the planet.

All that is important is to note is Figg claimed the title of supremacy and Bob had it passed to him. Bob was elected by the former champion to be the new champion. Who knows what happens if Bob lost, he didn't lose in any version of the tale so it doesn't really matter.

When the fight was done and over James took the stage to announce to his public they'd be in for a real treat because in a week's time his new student would be there to topple Bob.

Nat Peartree would fight Robert Whitaker for the HW crown one week later. Nat cut Bob up good and closed his eyes. "Damn'me What is a man when he is not beat but eyes do not allow sight"

Nat becomes champion how? Because he beat Bob or because Figg elected him? It wouldn't become an issue for sometime actually but it was really because Figg said so. Again, who know what happens if Nat loses, in not version of event does anyone claim he may have.

Peartree loses to a guy named Gritton, Gritton to a fella called Pipes, Pipes has a back and forth with a fella names Gretting. Bill Gretting and John Gritton often get confused but are totally different men. Pipes is Tom Allen. If you do research most often you'll see him as Tom Pipes but sometime they use his real name.

Everyone I have named but the Gondolier are Figg's students who all trained and performed out of Figg's Amphitheatre. If you're a bit suspect as to the legitimacy of all these in house Figg fights whose outcomes are predicted by Figg with absolute 100% correct exactness bubba you ain't too slow I reckon. I do myself, but whether those fights were legitimate or not don't really matter yet.

While Pipes and Gretting were having their back and forth another student of Figg claimed the championship, kind of. George Taylor defeats Gretting when Gretting was champion. Figg basically dictated to his students who was champion and no one argued. Figg wanted Pipes to be champion and so George did not press the issue yet. Gretting and Pipes would continue to fight one another for the title even though George had defeated the champion.

John Gritton, to my knowledge, quietly retired into a manager role at the amphitheater rather than losing to Pipes in the ring. Pipes was simply the Figg student who claimed the title after Gritton retired and Figg okayed it.

Just to recap, Whitaker whoops Gondo, Peartree closed Bob's eyes, Gritton KO's Nat, and John retires from the ring to work in the amphitheatre while Pipes is elevated by Figg to champion. Pipes mixes status up with Gretting. While Gretting is champion he loses to Taylor. Pipes reclaimed the title by beating Greatting rather than Taylor because Figg says so.

OK, so the champion is Pipes, kind of. Figg announces Pipes days are numbered as his final star pupil takes the stage. Jack Broughton enters the scene. Jack whoops Pipes and is called champion. James Figg dies.

There is now a power vacuum and how the title can be transferred can be challenged for the first time. George Taylor pretty promptly set to just that. He starts his own amphitheatre and claims the title on the basis of man who beat the man.

Broughton also started his own amphitheatre because Figg had passed his onto a George Stevenson, I believe, and the three houses competed for asses in seats. Broughton had the endorsement of Figg as champion. Figg's own amphitheatre would try to maintain control over boxing but did not challenge Broughton's champion claim. George Taylor and his amphitheatre did.

Jack and George agreed to fight at Jack's amphitheatre for George's claim. This is what legitimized man who beat the man. On one hand Jack had to give up some of the power he held on the other he could gain more if he played his cards right. He knew that if he allowed Figg's amphitheatre to dictate what is boxing he'd have little control, but if he lost to George he'd have none. He chose to minimize Figg's amphitheatre role in championship boxing and instead tried his hand at accepting legitimate claims and George's as legitimate.

Jack of course chose to fight George. Well, he built the fight by first fighting good ol' Gretting a few times, then he and Taylor fought a few and the case was settled. If Jack hadn't fought George then who know what would have happened. Had Jack stayed in his own lane, George in his and Figg's people in theirs, then maybe boxing would have split into three groups, maybe it would have died young. George and Jack consolidated the fan base though and left Figg's people dependant on him rather than he them.

Broughton would beat the tar out of Figg's Amphitheatre rep George Stevenson later on. It wasn't meant to be so brutal, in fact it was meant to help the Figg crew continue on without Figg or total control over boxing. Afterward Broughton would codify his rule set. He was protecting himself as much as anyone else.

This is all very early English boxing history, but, clearly man who beat the man wasn't as natural a thing as one might assume. It was a planned thing that became a tradition because it grants power over boxing to the winner while the alternatives give it to a third party overseer.

Pressing on, Broughton loses to Jack Slack. A man with no connections to any amphitheatres. Boxing leaves the control of the venue and becomes controlled by the champion. We enter an age of fixed fights and counterfeit champions. The english title is basically for sale.

Slack loses to Stevens after being champion for a decade. Stevens loses to Meggs in a poorly pulled off farce and falls into disgrace, Meggs loses to Millsom, Millsom to Jachau, Jachua to Darts who drops and regains his title to and from Lyons before finally losing to Corcoran. Corcoran loses to Sellers and Sellers loses to Fearns. Fearn's only fight ever is with Sellers, he retires.

Finally comes Tom Johnson, probably the first legitimate champion since Jack Slack. Johnson beat a whole slew of well known pugilists from his day before claiming the championship in front of a crowd of thousands. He would validate his claim by touring England and taking on all challengers.

Why I keep going is because even though I've established where man who beat the man came from and why it's seen as more important than anything else I have to to voer it being challenged. We've seen retirements and the lineage continue through multiple vacancies but Gritton nor Fearns never came back to reclaim their title. Probably because their fights were dubious in the first place.

Johnson would retire unbeaten with a nice 10-0 record. Very respectable for bare knuckle. Lucky for us Johnson retired at a right easy year to remember, 1790, that same year Daniel The *** Mendoza would claim the championship. Mendoza is not normally credited as champion until 1794.

What happened was in 1790 Tom retires and Daniel claims the throne. In 1791 Tom comes out of retirement to fight Ben Brain striping Mendoza of any claim. Tom is still the champion until Brain beats Tom in 1791. Ben is now champion because he is the man who beat the man even if that man retired and came back. Brain himself would retire in 1791 but would comeback and retire again in 1794 forcing the earliest Mendoza can make a claim 1794. He does, and defends it against Bill Warr, and old foe of Johnson's.


Daniel The *** invents all sorts of stuff as champion. Defense, posturing, blocking, footwork, parry, counterpunch, all The ***'s inventions or greatly modified by The ***. The *** then invented ticketing for a sporting event. The *** also invented rousing the audience through the media, newspapers in his day. Daniel also invented soft gloves for training. He was a LW, WW, MW, and HW. ge got titles at LW, MW, and HW I believe, well definitely at HW and MW not sure if the other was LW of WW.

The people of England hated The *** for being a *** and so they elected one of the nobleman to cheat him out of his title. John Jackson held Daniel's ponytail and whaled his face until he fell to a heap to cheer and applause. John Jackson then retires and starts the first pugilistic club, called The Pugilistic Club while we enter the next English era of farce fights. Rather than back room deals this era featured overt cheating with unfortunate challengers who were not allowed to win.

Tom Owen would be our next guy folks call champion. With Jackson gone the title was again vacant and even though Tom hardly had any resume at all he was credited for inventing the dumbell. Fight a couple of fellas, becomes champion, loses to Barty, fights a few more fellas, beats an old Mendoza and retires. Barty is now our champion.

Jack Bartholomew has even less to him, fought a couple of guys before Owen, lost to one of them then whooped Owen in a questionable match. Barty leaves us swiftly because the return of a true king. Jem Belcher was the grandson of Jack Slack. Jem stack 11 wins before eating a few losses and retiring. Nothing real big here, but Jem was a great champion.

Hen the Game Chicken Pearce was a total badass. 7 wins, no losses, and in his free time he runs into burning buildings to save women and children. I ain't even half whistlin' dixie. Game Chicken retired undusted because he became ill. Poor fellow didn't last long, but was pretty damn cool.

John Gully is seen as the next champion because He'd fought Hen well once and was scheduled to do it again until Hen fell ill. Folks were happy to entertain Gully as a must for one half the vacancy. Gully fought and beat Bob Gregson for the vacant title left by Hen. He'd fight Gregson a few more times then retire to be a bookmaker and them MP. Ain't even half whistlin' bubba. MP champion Gully. Well actually **** I could be wrong. I assume MP stand for member of parliament.

Post Gully we have a nice fresh round of Cheatie MacCheater. Tom Cribb's punk ass lost to several men but for some reason kept getting a freeride. His first dubious match was against Bill Richmond. Bill was a black man and easily and flagrantly cheated. then our great champion Cribb moves on to being knock right the **** out by Jem Belcher, remember the grandson of Slack, but is given ample time to wake back up and keep fighting. Jem KO's Tom in 18rnds, Tom got Jem back by 35. Our good ol pal Gregson makes an appearance. Cribb probably actually beat that one. The the Molyneaux debacle. Cribb is KO'd for over thirty seconds, the crowd rushes the ring to protect Cribb from losing. The ref refuses to count until the crowd is seated. Molyneaux is beaten, bitten, punches, and kicked, by the crowd. Cribb regains himself while Molyneaux is left in a deadly state. Molyneaux is compelled to fight on by his corner and get KO'd himself. The English are a bit embarrassed and over Moly a prize anyway and call him champion along with Cribb. Molyneaux would die not long after and would never live a healthy life after having faced Cribb's audience.

King George present Tom Cribb with a lion skin and gold belt. The fancy give Molyneaux a silver cup and a leather and copper belt. These are the first champion belts in boxing history.

Outside of a few more cheats over black men and sparring nobelity Cribb doesn't do much. He was known to use soft gloves to train with nobles so that they could feel his power without getting too disfigured.

That's the first hundred years of boxing history kids. Just went from 1722 to 1822.

Tom Spring would become champion when Tom Cribb retired and elected Tom Spring as the new champion the same way that James Figg elected Bob Whitaker. Spring fought for the vacant against Bill Neat. Most of Spring's career happens prior to Cribb's retirement and his elevation to champion so he only gets in two defenses against the same challenger and then retires.

Spring retires in 1824 leaving another vacancy. Tom Cannon claims it that year and fights a man named Hudson if memory is still firing right. Like most dubious character Cannon does have many fights in his career. He had two fights, won a vacant title, defended against the same man he beat for the vacant, then dropped his belt in a dubious match to Jem Ward.

Jem Ward is, in my opinion, the worst champion boxing was ever forced to suffer. If one simply glances over Jem's record you'll see a bare knuckle record with somewhere in the ballpark of twenty wins to just three losses and probably think he was a pretty damn good champion. What you wouldn't be seeing is all the fixing and bull****ting Jem did.

Jem starts boxing at fifteen and racks up nine wins by the time he's twenty. Later that same year he also suffer his first loss. Jem was boxing a mane named Bill Abbott, and getting the better of him. Jem was also the heavy favorite to win. "Now, Bill, look sharp, hit me and I’ll go down." said Ward so loud the audience, the betting audience, could hear him.

The Pugilistic Club moved in swiftly with an investigation. Ward ended up fessing up to accepting a 100 pound bribe. Jem Ward was banned from PC sanctioned matches.

Jem would continue to box after being banned in two forms. If he was available to stand in for a no show or some such similar situation he could box to entertain the crowd who had bought tickets and such but the results could be voided by the PC. The other way Ward kept himself active was by fighting under aliases.

Ward's ban is lifted after a year. Jem has some wins, some losses, fixes a few farces, and buys himself the championship from Tom Cannon in one of the highest profile matches of the bare knuckle era. Cannon had secured Tom Spring and Tom Cribb for his corner men. Guaranteeing an absurd turn out for his going away party that did not disappoint. Ward would beat Cannon in ten minute fight few believe was authentic today.

From here out Ward isn't just rich he's famous as can be. He's got the blessing of three generations of champions and all a huge population saw it. As champion Ward sits on ass for a year then has a fake fight he's given credit for with one of his fake fighting buddies from the last, just a quick cash grab to float him. Ward sits on ass for another year.

In 1827 Ward is pressured by the public into accepting a fight with Peter Crawley. He was to either retire and accept Peter's claim for championship or fight Peter and prove he was still the champion of pugilism. Jem has no fund to bribe Crawley with and has to actually fight this man. Peter knock Ward out and becomes the new champion but promptly retired and refuses to fight Ward again allowing Jem a chance to reclaim his title while losing the fight for it.

Jem sits on his title until he runs low on money then throws another fake fight for another fake win.

Ward does this a few more times with a specific fella he installed as the Irish champion named Simon Byrne.

This was seen as an impressive unification when Jem did it but the truth was it was all bull****.

James Burke challenges Jem Ward. First Ward retires and elects Simon Byrne champion. Burke whoops Byrne, thinking he's a real and legitimate high level fighter, so bad Byrne ends up dead. I've not mentioned a death since Molyneaux and that was only after a few years of suffering with his injuries. Byrne died three days after Burke KO'd him. Burke was jailed for murder, but later released.

Ward then reclaimed his title stating Burke's fight with Byrne was not a championship quality match afterall and he'd have to continue on as champion because he possessed true Englishness....whatever that means, Deaf Burke is from London.

Ward is seen a champion. Burke issues a new challenge. Ward answers by requesting an absurd purse. Everyone laughs at Deaf Burke's misfortune because no one believes he will be able to come up with the money. For a few years Burke's a joke while Ward sits on ass claiming the championship. Burke did actually raise the money. He traveled England doing odd jobs, like just fixing your plow or helping you build a fence. The people of England financed Burke's challenge.

As Burke was being publicly funded Ward could keep track of his efforts. Ward would raise the stakes as James got closer and closer to his goal.

Eventually Ward took the money and retired. Told Burke to fight his baby brother Nick Ward.

Burke beats the **** of out Nick Ward. Jem Ward claims that fight wasn't good enough to call Burke champion, Burke's too ****** to be champion, comes out of retirement and reclaims his title.

Having succeeded in doing little for the people of England but giving their money to Ward, Burke goes to America. After Byrne got killed the Irish scene was keen to get their champion back in the ring with the English champion to prove their mettle. The Irish champion was Sam O'Rourke. The thing was the Irish didn't agree with the English, they felt Jem's claim over the title was illegitimate and that Burke was the true English champion. The Americans agreed, and, had a nice size audience with deep pockets. Sam and James fought in the US for the English crown in a move to take the title from Burke.

Deaf Burke knocks the piss out of Sam O'Rourke and is crowned by the American Fancy, sometimes call The Gentry, champion while much of England and Ward gnash gnarled teeth and shake wrinkled fists.

It isn't until Burke actually loses that Ward gives up his belt. Ward is scared of Burke so while the Americans give him the title Ward does not press the issue because now to get his title back the audience demands the one thing Jem Ward was never willing to give James Burke, a fight.

Bendigo Thompson beats Burke in around 1840ish. Jem Ward presents Bendigo with his belt and retires to a hotel he owns.

Bold Bendigo was a means for the Ward family to regain control of the title. His resume is just lousy with DQs. He won a claim of his title by DQ in a vacancy fight elected by Ward while Burke was fighting O'Rourke. He lost his claim to Ben Caunt, also by DQ, and the same man he fought for the vacant Ward title. He the beat Burke, yep, by DQ. Burke should not have came to England. Now he has a claim and Ward drops his objections and gives his blessing and belt up to Bendigo.

Bendigo DQs out again to Caunt who DQs out to Nick Ward, Jem Ward's baby brother, Nick Ward loses to Caunt in a seemingly straightforward and legitimate fight. Ben Caunt DQs out to Bendigo.

I've been putting off continuing because I've been sick.


Before we can press on we have to back up in time and jump across the Atlantic to America.

American bare knuckle boxing can be dated as early as 1735 in the Chesapeake colonies. For the vast majority of American bare knuckle history boxing was conducted under an agreed rule to no rules sport derived from honor duels. When I say no rules I mean seriously, by 1745 there's laws on the books making cutting out tongues, gouging out eyes, or castrating your fellow citizen a felony offense because those were common waits to end a fight they called a boxing match. Organization was next to nonexistent, most of the fights I've read about were more barroom brawl than anything else. Man bumped into other man in a saloon and didn't say excuse me, there's a rumble, someone lost an eye...like Hollywood Cowboy scenes except 18th century and in the early east US.

Because American bare knuckle was so brutal it has a few things holding it back. Firstly, the law is much more harsh against boxer in America than it is in England not really because the lawman have any problem with the sport so much as when a citizen is seriously injured by another that's usually when the law steps in. In England that'd be the more common than the present but still uncommon death. In America ending fights in brutal fashion that might incite the law is common. Second, because it's a barbaric form of fighting the American upper class have little interest in it. Third, when all your fighters are disabled by fighting it's hard for a sport to grow in a time when the only way to see a fight is to be there. The English toured in tents around England to promote boxing like a fair or circus. The Americans cuts one another's pee-pee's off in a bar.

The English form of bare knuckle, Broughton's rules and London Prize Ring, really didn't seem to pick up any steam in American until around the 1820s. Two things went on to cause this.

1.) Irish folks started to come to America and changed the demographics

2.) The English champion was weak.

Early on there's little to no politics involved. It's as simple as the English champion during the late 1820s and early 1830s, Jem Ward, was clearly ducking and avoiding the best boxer at that time, the English contender James Burke. The American public had grown by quite a lot by then and most of them knew nothing about the boxing the was coming out of Chesapeake because to most of America the boxing they knew about was what their parents or grandparents told them about. There was an interest in the sons and daughters of immigrants to see the sport their fathers were talking about.

With Irish immigration also came America's first generation of American born Americans claiming immigrants are making America UnAmerican. By the 1840s boxing is heavily politicized. Think Wall in America, Brexit in the UK.

he American press demonized the sport as a violent European import. They were, for the most part, unaware of the American version of bare knuckle boxing and seemed to believe there was no combat sports in the US before the Irish started coming to America.

A specific fighter you come to be to focal point of American anti-immigration politics.

Yankee Sullivan begins his career in his home nation, Ireland. He gets shipped off to Australia for mischief, he was hired to beat up people who tried to vote against his hire. From Australia he stowed away on a boat to America. In America he made a name from himself by defeating a well known and respected boxing named Hammer Lane under the moniker Yankee Sullivan while claiming to be an American born Irish. Jack Hammer Lane was called Hammer because when an opponent went down he'd fall with them and drive his elbow into their chest...ye'son...elbow drop. Yankee was relatively popular in boxing circles after this fight but not yet in the mainstream political sphere.

Later Yankee would second for Chris Lily, an Englishman, when he fought Tom McCoy, American. McCoy was flopping, revitist Bob Whitaker's story if you don't remember flopping. Yankee instructed Lily to go down with McCoy when Tom flops, to make it hard for Tom to breathe while under Lily, and to get up slowly.

It worked, real, real well. Last time Lily got off McCoy Tom was dead. Smothered by Chris Lily. There would be a murder investigation and a whole lot of press. Chris ****ed off back to England. Yankee was arrested, stood trial, and was found innocent of murder but still banned for life from boxing. During the highly publicized trial the fact that Yankee was a criminal from ireland who stole his way to America from Australia became public knowledge.

Sully would continue to fight, he just had to avoid the law while doing it.

Tom Hyer was a young Rough and Tumble fighter whose father was also a pugilist and who was born in the US. Hyer had already claimed the American championship and challenged the English champ but neither the English champion nor the American public were not interested in Hyer outside of the small American boxing fanbase.

Hyer and Sully go into a bar, they talk a bunch of **** and bump chests. There's a year of build up in the press where Yankee comes to embody all the bad things about Irish immigration while Hyer embodies all the good qualities of American born Americans.

It's fair to say that Yankee Sullivan exploits put boxing into the American public's minds, much more so than James Burkes, Sam O'Rourke, and Jem Ward were able to do, but, it's also fair to say Tom Hyer convinced America for boxing virtues and that it had a place in American society.

Tom Hyer wins and becomes the first American champion with enough following to be recognized by the UK since Tom Molyneaux made his claim. The year is 1849

That gets us to 1850s for both America and England.

Soon, I'll be able to get into the first world champions.

[QueensburyRules]

--- All well and good and wordy, but perhaps more than a bit ethereal.

Condensed, if I coax the 50 something fat LLewis out of retirement and beat him, then by primacy, I'd hold the #1 lineal heavy belt over Wlad and now AJ?

I like it! Now to round up the $$$, that'd be harder than the fight, so if only I break out my Ouiji ball I can summon up Tex Rickard for pro guidance on fun and games.

[billeau2]

--- All well and good and wordy, but perhaps more than a bit ethereal.

Condensed, if I coax the 50 something fat LLewis out of retirement and beat him, then by primacy, I'd hold the #1 lineal heavy belt over Wlad and now AJ?

I like it! Now to round up the $$$, that'd be harder than the fight, so if only I break out my Ouiji ball I can summon up Tex Rickard for pro guidance on fun and games.

So thats what all this is... To declare your love to AJ. Thats what all this fuss is about lol. You can really be an imbecile. There is nothing in any title, any belt that says one cannot claim a champion of one sort or another is a stronger fighter. AJ does not have to be the lineal.

It was explained to you countless times how the lineal works. No retirement does not work that way. Retirement can be an option to declare a lineal, it is not the only option.

Why work so hard to spread ignorance? I mean you really don't get that if there is a present man who beat the man, as a lineal claiment, that it would not matter what Lennox Lewis presently does?

[QueensburyRules]

--- Mattered in JJOHNSON day sonny.

Mattered when the lineal tinfoils gave Holmes the lineal after picking the wings off a clearly sick Ali, so sick I have refused to watch his last two fights.

And he was clearly sick before that as was obvious in the Wepner fight forward.

[HOUDINI563]

Ali did not show outward signs of illness until the first Spinks bout. I was a regular at Deer Lake and noticed changes in his demeanor around that time. As did many of the other regulars at that time.

Holmes won the hwt title by beating No 1 Norton as well as beating the unretired Ali. Add to this the highly rated Shavers. This trio of wins made him the obvious best at that time and deserving of the true title. By far and away.

[QueensburyRules]

--- Ali was so obviously a spent bullet after Foreman as subsequent fights prove.

Even the postfight interview has him downcast like he just arose from his death bed. He's no longer the clowning kid but a fighter who just had a life altering experience.

His post Foreman numbers don't lie. What fighters are gonna let a club fighter like Wepner go 15?

Ali loved selling rematches, but he and his team killed the lucrative Foreman rematch.

You and your ilk can be seen as keeping a depleted Ali propped up for devasting post career health problems. The shavers fight was like watching an old man get beaten with a baseball bat.

No doubt you'd fit well in with frothing Roman coliseum fans in your day.

[DreamFighter]

-

His post Foreman numbers don't lie. What fighters are gonna let a club fighter like Wepner go 15?

you do lie though, wepner was stopped.

[Ali loved selling rematches, but he and his team killed the lucrative Foreman rematch.

a definitive mid round ko requires no rematch.

Really you are trying to argue that Ali was crap because he beat unbeaten ATG top ten Olympic gold ATG-killing Foreman by mid round stoppage. Good luck with that.

[DreamFighter]

Ali did not show outward signs of illness until the first Spinks bout. I was a regular at Deer Lake and noticed changes in his demeanor around that time. As did many of the other regulars at that time.

Holmes won the hwt title by beating No 1 Norton as well as beating the unretired Ali. Add to this the highly rated Shavers. This trio of wins made him the obvious best at that time and deserving of the true title. By far and away.

this is true, although it mightbe worth pointing out that Parkinsons is present in a patient about 5- 10 years before the first signs are visible to observers.

The reason you are right is that the body tends to compensate for damaged Parkinsons pathways by alternative pathways for a few years, until its no longer possible to, so its detected much later than its starts.

Not sure about Parkinsonians though, need to reread about it. Its sickening reading to be honest, I dont relish looking it up. Mother of god i hope I never get this, when you actually sit down and process it, it terrifies you.

[QueensburyRules]

you do lie though, wepner was stopped.

a definitive mid round ko requires no rematch.

Really you are trying to argue that Ali was crap because he beat unbeaten ATG top ten Olympic gold ATG-killing Foreman by mid round stoppage. Good luck with that.

--- Nah, that was you screeching to a stop not realizing Wepner who was easily dismissed by a 20 yr old novice Foreman took Ali into the 15th rd.

Yeah, figures you never heard of the injustices Foreman endured in the lead up to the rumble.

Not the least was a fast count of a champ who had never been knocked down. Ali was down for 30 sec after the stoppage and had to be helped to his corner he was so depleted.

Keep them easy fast balls comin' in my sweet spot. Luvs me my tape measure Homers!