Wlad–Chagaev & the lineal HW title

[DreamFighter]

--- Nah,

so you try to maintain the lie, ok, nuff said.

[HOUDINI563]

Same crap for 30 years from Queen.

There was no short count. Foreman was counted OUT and the count was timed three time on wide world of sports a week after the fight occurred. The count was completely accurate and George did not beat it.

Ali was asked years later why no second bout with Foreman. His response was they tried to make the bout but Foreman wanted nothing of it. If you check the timeline there was only a short period where the bout could have been made. George was out of the sport for 18 months, came back but then retired after losing to Young in 77.

[Marchegiano]

--- All well and good and wordy, but perhaps more than a bit ethereal.

Condensed, if I coax the 50 something fat LLewis out of retirement and beat him, then by primacy, I'd hold the #1 lineal heavy belt over Wlad and now AJ?

I like it! Now to round up the $$$, that'd be harder than the fight, so if only I break out my Ouiji ball I can summon up Tex Rickard for pro guidance on fun and games.

Yes, in the coming posts I will lay just that out in several different situations. We're only up to the 1850s and I've not even talked about the black side of the story.

It's funny you mention Tex. I reckon you know exactly where I am going with this. So, rather than being flippant why don't you control that narrative?

Tell us what happened, how we got this culture, how we got these traditions, and why LPRR is considered boxing while other fistic sports of the time are disconnected fist fighting sports with nothing to do with boxing.

I don't have to be the man explaining all of this. I thought I was the only one capable, but, if you are then by all means have at it bubba. I don't need control of the narrative to make points. I need you all to know the information before we can talk about it.

Clearly, right, wrong or on the fence, most people do not know the history of the lineal championship and do not let that ignorance stop them from having vehement and passionate debates.


From my perspective I mean only to educate not manipulate. So, go ahead and take over the narrative if you can.

If you can't I'd kindly ask you to stop your childlike flippancy and patiently wait for the story to be finished. Just because you did not assume it does not mean it's untrue.

[billeau2]

--- Nah, that was you screeching to a stop not realizing Wepner who was easily dismissed by a 20 yr old novice Foreman took Ali into the 15th rd.

Yeah, figures you never heard of the injustices Foreman endured in the lead up to the rumble.

Not the least was a fast count of a champ who had never been knocked down. Ali was down for 30 sec after the stoppage and had to be helped to his corner he was so depleted.

Keep them easy fast balls comin' in my sweet spot. Luvs me my tape measure Homers!

Oh come on!! Please don't go down that road... Ward haters love to do this, but it is common behavior by many. You take a fighter and you basically explain away every win they got, make an excuse as to why they endured. Every idiot that does this should have to go through Sugar Ray Robinson's record and explain away every fight he won!!!

Sure Foreman had a bad toenail...Ali would have fallen of it was not for Dundee sticking an African war spear up his butt to hold him upright..... Arrrrgh!

[billeau2]

Yes, in the coming posts I will lay just that out in several different situations. We're only up to the 1850s and I've not even talked about the black side of the story.

It's funny you mention Tex. I reckon you know exactly where I am going with this. So, rather than being flippant why don't you control that narrative?

Tell us what happened, how we got this culture, how we got these traditions, and why LPRR is considered boxing while other fistic sports of the time are disconnected fist fighting sports with nothing to do with boxing.

I don't have to be the man explaining all of this. I thought I was the only one capable, but, if you are then by all means have at it bubba. I don't need control of the narrative to make points. I need you all to know the information before we can talk about it.

Clearly, right, wrong or on the fence, most people do not know the history of the lineal championship and do not let that ignorance stop them from having vehement and passionate debates.


From my perspective I mean only to educate not manipulate. So, go ahead and take over the narrative if you can.

If you can't I'd kindly ask you to stop your childlike flippancy and patiently wait for the story to be finished. Just because you did not assume it does not mean it's untrue.

M
There are things I will never understand about people. My mother... She endured such scorn and hate bringing me on her back to Anti war demonstrations... And spent an entire generation voting for candidates that were the lesser of two evils... Yet here comes Hillary Clinton, a woman so malfeasant, and I am not even talking about Trump here, Just Clinton. And people of my mother's generation? people who told the ************* "You cannot legislate morality! A woman can choose, and a person's orientation is their business," yada yada...

All that is abandoned and a party is allowed to censor, we are told if we use the wrong word we can be punished, we are told that men being men is a crime against nature, etc...AND IT IS PEOPLE LIKE MY MOTHER who support this candidacy! With nary a thought about the original proposition that Government has no right to legislate our word choices, our life choices, etc. They don't see the irony. Whether one supports Trump or not is immaterial...the point is how BLIND people can be!!!

And here is Queen, who appears to be an intelligent and likable lout... But is so steadfast in mocking the power of knowlegable fans to maintain a system that is flexible and credits the best fighter in the premier division...In my humble opinion the lineal is strictly for the premier open division in boxing...the heavyweights.

Queen would destroy this system because of hypothetical contingencies that don't even apply....and in its place? I guess we should put some government agency with a board of fat cats to tell us who the champ is. because we are M....really as Aristotle says "Intelligent Animals", Monkeys with no tails, that need the monkeys in authority to dictate what is, and what is not. Queen would damn us all to this because? of his own illogical position that refuses to accept that the lineal does not depend on any technicality other than finding the best man to represent. And when it is pointed out as you have, that this title has tradition and... HISTORY and when it is pointed out, as I have... that the most steadfast, credible, and documented historically sanctioned systems in the world depend on an equally simple mechanism of action as the lineal... He just ignores it.

In Japan when one buys a real Japanese made sword they would have to leave it in Japan. There would be pages of documents attesting to the maker of the sword, and then it would have to be fitted with other crafted items, from similar craftsmen, and then it has to be tested... YET the systems that teach one how to use this sword, and are registered by all authorities in Japan, government, Empror, otherwise, depend on only one thing, and that would be: an unbroken line of succesorship. Simple. You can either demonstrate it, or not... Simple.

I feel like I have given it my all. Queen is not a ****** man and his need to convince others that the lineal is not legit must have some purpose I am not aware of. Because he certainly has not argued succsefully for any purpose up to this point.

[BM dnobagaV]

Lmfao this is my favorite thread on this forum.

"To be the man you've got to beat the man"
When future HW champ James Corney pulls the corpse of Lennox Lewis out of the casket and knocks him out, we will finally have a new lineal champ everybody

[HOUDINI563]

Thing is....you don’t always need to beat the man. If THE MAN retires the lineage is still valid if the top two hwts fight for the now vacant title. Always been the case.

Of course there are times where the pieces of the puzzle need to be spilled together. Holmes as an example became the new champion on the strength of beating No 1 and uncrowned champion Norton AND beating the unreturned Ali. In retrospect Holmes was undoubtedly the best after Ali retired and the deserving new champion.

[Marchegiano]

M
There are things I will never understand about people. My mother... She endured such scorn and hate bringing me on her back to Anti war demonstrations... And spent an entire generation voting for candidates that were the lesser of two evils... Yet here comes Hillary Clinton, a woman so malfeasant, and I am not even talking about Trump here, Just Clinton. And people of my mother's generation? people who told the ************* "You cannot legislate morality! A woman can choose, and a person's orientation is their business," yada yada...

All that is abandoned and a party is allowed to censor, we are told if we use the wrong word we can be punished, we are told that men being men is a crime against nature, etc...AND IT IS PEOPLE LIKE MY MOTHER who support this candidacy! With nary a thought about the original proposition that Government has no right to legislate our word choices, our life choices, etc. They don't see the irony. Whether one supports Trump or not is immaterial...the point is how BLIND people can be!!!

And here is Queen, who appears to be an intelligent and likable lout... But is so steadfast in mocking the power of knowlegable fans to maintain a system that is flexible and credits the best fighter in the premier division...In my humble opinion the lineal is strictly for the premier open division in boxing...the heavyweights.

Queen would destroy this system because of hypothetical contingencies that don't even apply....and in its place? I guess we should put some government agency with a board of fat cats to tell us who the champ is. because we are M....really as Aristotle says "Intelligent Animals", Monkeys with no tails, that need the monkeys in authority to dictate what is, and what is not. Queen would damn us all to this because? of his own illogical position that refuses to accept that the lineal does not depend on any technicality other than finding the best man to represent. And when it is pointed out as you have, that this title has tradition and... HISTORY and when it is pointed out, as I have... that the most steadfast, credible, and documented historically sanctioned systems in the world depend on an equally simple mechanism of action as the lineal... He just ignores it.

In Japan when one buys a real Japanese made sword they would have to leave it in Japan. There would be pages of documents attesting to the maker of the sword, and then it would have to be fitted with other crafted items, from similar craftsmen, and then it has to be tested... YET the systems that teach one how to use this sword, and are registered by all authorities in Japan, government, Empror, otherwise, depend on only one thing, and that would be: an unbroken line of succesorship. Simple. You can either demonstrate it, or not... Simple.

I feel like I have given it my all. Queen is not a ****** man and his need to convince others that the lineal is not legit must have some purpose I am not aware of. Because he certainly has not argued succsefully for any purpose up to this point.

I think you should write books! Or at least work with fellas who do.

I get that, hell I am sympathetic to both sides of the political coin. I vote for myself because being a pawn in other men's schemes is not something I think I want to do. Folks like your momma seem to be controlled a bit by their fears. The lesser of two evils is only something you hope for when all hope is lost. So I am sympathetic to those poor hopeless bastards.

In the case of folks like Queen I invited him (Her?) to tell the tale because I'm honestly interested in how one gets these very modern sentiments from a 19th century title. With politics it's easily fear that control everything. I look at home and see nothing but fear politics, I look to the UK and see Germany of all people warning them of the troubles of a ***********ing Europe, poor Catalonia is being shot by Spanish forces for voting. Even Japan had them a nice round of wtf fear politics with their wanting to keep all citizens Japanese and wanting to have the legal authority to attack restored. China has Hong Kong and South Sea problems. Russia is still dealing with a lot of internal terrorism.

That's scary stuff to hear.

But Queen, what does he have to motivate him?

That I can't sympathize because I can't figure it out. Like you say, he seems rather intelligent. Maybe that's all it is, he needs to be the smart guy? If that's the case all he ever needed to do was ask. I don't care about being the smart guy here, I am from the southlands. It's been decided before I was birthed we are not the smart folk.

I dunno, I offered him uncontested control over the lineal narrative because I am as interested in how one comes to the conclusion a 19th century title has nothing but 21st century sentiments tied to it as I am in the story as I know it and everyone being on equal ground or at least lead to it.

Queen doesn't want to do that so we're back to a puzzle. I don't know what his motivations or goals are. I don't really even understand his understanding of lineal.


I could go to bat for the sanctioning bodies myself. I don't hate them as much as most, and, all things considered I would consider them a net positive over a negative.

In my opinion the Bodies need to update. They're old and the time when they were necessary passed in abouts the 70s. Which is why the 80s brought us not one but two splits and new major bodies.

So from the 1910s to the 1960sish I'd claim the bodies did their job.

from the 70s to today we've seen the rise of lineal, ain't no one talking about lineal during the reign of Marciano that's for damn sure. We saw the bodies piss off the fan base so much they could not stand to adhere to body championship nonsense and chose their own champion and based their choices on the old ways. That wasn't enough though. The bodies did not learn their lesson and a decade later we've two shiny new authorities whose whole purpose was to update while the old two were left behind.

Today we have four ***********al and damn near useless authorities acting like the criminal element they shoved out. Particularly the WBC. The WBC does not need any other body to exist. The only reason the WBA does is because the WBC was slow to react. It is the WBC, alone, who cleaned up boxing. They are why fixed fights were rampant in bare knuckle, pretty bad at the beginning of the century, and hit a steady downhill slope by the 30s to be all but eliminated by the 50s. I respect the WBC and I feel kind of sad the proud and honorable WBC is now simply Suliman's Green Belt. I could sympathize with Queen probably if Queen would actually open up beyond snarky and childish flippancy.




Japan is a funny nation. Carpentry there is all hand tools and mechanical locks, it's really amazing. Recently Japanese style hand tools have flooded the market in the US. I picked up a US made Japanese style pruning saw for 15 bucks about a month ago. I tell ya, it's a goddamn pleasure anytime I use that saw. Japan knows metals and tools man, real impressive stuff. I can only imagine what the Japanese actually work with in Japan.

[QueensburyRules]

--- Holmsey 0-5 against standing champs who actually beat a title holder.

Played a key role in further splitting the title into the ABCs.

Admittedly rated the best thumber in boxing by his peers, and praise the gods for his last moments in boxing riding the ropes fleeing the counting ref after being knocked down by Butterbean!

Yessssss, 330 lbs of sublimity condensed for a highlight of the ages.

[HOUDINI563]

Silly. Holmes was undefeated in his first 49 bouts only losing for the first time at the age of 36. At the top of his game few could get around that jab of his. That one punch alone beat 90% of all hwt champions unless they had the skill and speed to get around it. No hwt champion is rated as an ATG by so many (all) experts unless there is a reason to do so.