Wlad–Chagaev & the lineal HW title

[HOUDINI563]

Foreman was on the cover of SI December 15 1975 saying he wanted to fight Ali again. That’s 14 months after being koed by Ali for a 10 count. He had not fought during that time as he fought depression that “he almost did not come out of”.

By the end of 1975 both Frazier and Norton were rated over George due to his inactivity. The public wanted Ali to fight Norton not so much a fighter Ali exposed and koed.

Ali thus set his sights on a rematch with Norton that occurred September of 76. Just a few months later Foreman was beaten by Young and retired. So the timeframe for a rematch was very narrow....Jan of 76 to March of 77. George if he really wanted a rematch had to fight to both regain his contender status and get back into shape. Had he beat Young he was promised a title shot but his one sided loss to Young and his retirement ended that opportunity.

Once again the count was timed on WWOS the week after the bout occurred. There was no controversy as it was quite clear there was no short count. George was counted out at the count of ten after being down for ten seconds.

[billeau2]

--- 48 and 0 ain't the same as 49 and 0 sweetie.

Valuev made 48-0 as well and would have Holmesy fleeing for his life as well.

End of the day, all you got is opinions and elbows. Statistical analysis and timeline comparisons are beyond your Eggbert comprehension.

You seriously think Valuev was much of a fighter? Holmes the pendulum does swing.., One ten year period he is a mere shadow of the greatest, then one of the best, with lateral movement second to none, and a jab that was top notch, and now he was ducking opponents?

[billeau2]

holmes didnt duck apart from perhaps in his last defence, when the LHW champ was seen as a soft touch.

And by that time he was getting past it... He was past it when he fought Mike Tyson.

I don't know if Queenie hates the lineal so much he is trying to dig at Holmes...or if his disdain for the lineal is because of Holmes.

[QueensburyRules]

And by that time he was getting past it... He was past it when he fought Mike Tyson.

I don't know if Queenie hates the lineal so much he is trying to dig at Holmes...or if his disdain for the lineal is because of Holmes.

--- hate a powerful word.

I understand the concept of lineal like the concept of Faeries as in ethereal time and space. If there is a definitive lineal overseer, it sleeps with the faeries and leprechauns.

Holmsey was born past it, and overachiever in the vast bank of natural boxing talent.

Espn measured the foreman Ali count at 8-9 sec...FACT!

FACT: In the 74 Playboy interview Ali mentions the huge rematch offer. In post fight interviews George is ready for the rematch, whereas Ali is noncommittal.

Fact: Foremans trainer Saddler was in cahoots with Ali. Fact : Foreman was severely cut his first day of sparring in Zaire that delayed the fight for a month. Fact: George not allowed to seek treatment outside of Zaire, in fact being held hostage in military barracks as the murderous Prez feted Ali in his palace. FACT: dundee loosened the ropes and had a history of that dating back to the first Frazier fight where he was summarily booted from the ring by Teddy Brenner.

You could look it up, but nah, easier to believe in faery tales...such is the privilege life of moderns.

[DreamFighter]

why use lies as facts, explain.

--- hate a powerful word.

I understand the concept of lineal like the concept of Faeries as in ethereal time and space. If there is a definitive lineal overseer, it sleeps with the faeries and leprechauns.

Holmsey was born past it, and overachiever in the vast bank of natural boxing talent.

Espn measured the foreman Ali count at 8-9 sec...FACT!

FACT: In the 74 Playboy interview Ali mentions the huge rematch offer. In post fight interviews George is ready for the rematch, whereas Ali is noncommittal.

Fact: Foremans trainer Saddler was in cahoots with Ali. Fact : Foreman was severely cut his first day of sparring in Zaire that delayed the fight for a month. Fact: George not allowed to seek treatment outside of Zaire, in fact being held hostage in military barracks as the murderous Prez feted Ali in his palace. FACT: dundee loosened the ropes and had a history of that dating back to the first Frazier fight where he was summarily booted from the ring by Teddy Brenner.

You could look it up, but nah, easier to believe in faery tales...such is the privilege life of moderns.

[Granath]

why use lies as facts, explain.

I guess if someone can't win the argument the go-to position is to lie.

It works in politics.

He can repeat it all he wants but there was no short count, no ducking a rematch, none of it. Foreman was thoroughly beaten both mentally and physically.

[DreamFighter]

I guess if someone can't win the argument the go-to position is to lie.

It works in politics.

He can repeat it all he wants but there was no short count, no ducking a rematch, none of it. Foreman was thoroughly beaten both mentally and physically.

agreed. i dont like talking about someone behind their back but i think hes either a few cards short of a full pack, or trolling.

[billeau2]

--- hate a powerful word.

I understand the concept of lineal like the concept of Faeries as in ethereal time and space. If there is a definitive lineal overseer, it sleeps with the faeries and leprechauns.

Holmsey was born past it, and overachiever in the vast bank of natural boxing talent.

Espn measured the foreman Ali count at 8-9 sec...FACT!

FACT: In the 74 Playboy interview Ali mentions the huge rematch offer. In post fight interviews George is ready for the rematch, whereas Ali is noncommittal.

Fact: Foremans trainer Saddler was in cahoots with Ali. Fact : Foreman was severely cut his first day of sparring in Zaire that delayed the fight for a month. Fact: George not allowed to seek treatment outside of Zaire, in fact being held hostage in military barracks as the murderous Prez feted Ali in his palace. FACT: dundee loosened the ropes and had a history of that dating back to the first Frazier fight where he was summarily booted from the ring by Teddy Brenner.

You could look it up, but nah, easier to believe in faery tales...such is the privilege life of moderns.

Look it up? Under what? Queenies list of pet peeves? When these type situations come to light we can learn some information (Look it up!) But its limited. As recently as a few years back, there was a modern piece written on Liston and... as I was trying to explain to Houdini, when all was exhausted what we got was a possibility that Liston was threatened and had to throw one of the fights.

I admit to treating you and Houdini in a juvenile fashion at times but you two puzzle me: mancheningo? I follow his research as he lays it out. It is totally transparent, he makes his asssertions known. That is generally the way it is done in the academy. But both you and Houdini, neither of you approach the research like someone who understands how research establishes a point ("look it up"?), particularly in your friend's case, (Houdini) who claims he got the paper. Not trashing either of you just saying:

You don't look up such bugaboos as you propose. Someone shows how these events caused a situation. So, for example if I wanted to propose to you that Sadler and company was in on a fix, I would give you a link below and ask you to look at it. See how that works? You don't tell someone "look it up." When Siablo accuses me of wearing a tin foil hat... I usually have given him at least one source that I consider credible, at the very least... It does not help, but its generally how it is done when you ask someone to look it up, unless you have the knowledge intimately, i.e. was there saw it happen.

Your understanding of Holmes is pretty much standard for before the Holmes revolution, in which a flag, of Holmes jumping at Berbick is held, and which represents the reinterpretation of Holmes: from arrogant, pinhead, who "could not carry Marciano's jockstrap" to quote the boys in South Philly, to boxer extradonaire: rapier jab, abused by Ali, overshadowed... excellent lateral movement, a chin and jab that may have been (gasp) better than the master's!! (Ali). So you must be around my age or older. Ok

Yeah you find the lineal etheral. It is a pet peeve of yours. I get it. I got better things than trying to convince you using history, the idea of succession and a background in REal Estate law (which deals a lot with succession!), to show how succesful transmission actually takes root. But one of these days you might look historically at the difference between King Arthur (I believe the sword is still in the stone) to something like the lineal which was just claimed by Tyson Fury.

I don't even get into counts... Yes that is beneath me sorry! lol.

[QueensburyRules]

--- Musta not paid attention to the fight.

Nor the post fight interviews, ect, et al. Ol' man george put to rest any doubts about his stamina, chin, natural talent and intelligence.

Lest there be any doubts, I always swing with the most honorable fighter. Loved Ali in his day and credit for enduring the 2nd best that George could offer under one off conditions designed for Ali.

And I ain't the one screaming George ain't getting no rematch. That was Ali.

Now, what was the latest fake news you had about this fight.

Yeah, Rump pardoned JJOHNSON and promised the same for Ali...only in America these days!

[HOUDINI563]

Both Ali Liston bouts were investigated at that time and no evidence of a fix was found.

Writers who want to make money try to find a new angle on an old subject. Then promote that angle as fact typically ignoring counter evidence.

Many at ringside saw a blow capable of stopping Liston. Read the eye witness account via SI as one example.

Read the frame by frame film analysis by Bud Schulburg. His conclusion was that Liston was hit by a blow he never saw coming as he stepped forward.

Listons trainers testimony that Liston alone in his dressing room after the bout asked for smelling salts. He never asked for smelling salts before.

Watch the force of the blow jerk Liston head/jaw. Note Listons legs spasm as he rolls onto his back. Watch Liston studder step after the bout is stopped and Sonny is walking mid ring as the crowd surrounds him.

I could go on but the uneducated love conspiracies. Why should I rain on your parade?