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Why Jack Johnson is Not as Great as You We’re Told

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  • Originally posted by Ivich View Post
    The 2nd McVey fight.


    McVea knew that, given his disadvantages in terms of height and reach, his best chance of victory was to attack and force his way to the inside. The challenger charged with fury in the opening round, hoping to ambush his man, but all he got for his trouble was a hard right hand to the chin. The punch traveled just a few inches but it was powerful enough to award the otherwise sturdy McVea with the first knockdown of his career. The challenger beat the count and survived to both hear the bell and then receive a welcome dose of smelling salts.
    Sam McVea
    Following this, McVea decided that bull-rushing Johnson was no longer the strategy of choice. For the next few rounds Johnson called the tune while Sam kept a healthy distance, content to throw the occasional lead. Urged on by his corner, he picked up the pace in round five, but his offensive efforts only allowed Johnson to demonstrate his skill at blocking and parrying. And then in round six a right hand put McVea on his backside again.

    Round seven saw Sam surprise Johnson with a rare telling blow, a quick straight left to the chin that put the champion on his heels, but in the eighth Jack regained control. Aware he was well behind on points, McVea doubled his efforts to force his way to the inside in rounds nine and ten, even provoking a shout from Johnson of, “See here, Sam, don’t you crowd me!” The exclamation was punctuated by a volley of stiff left jabs to McVea’s dour countenance.
    Johnson and McVea square off prior to their first battle.
    Credit to the challenger: he never stopped trying, but more slashing jabs and right crosses were all he received in return for his efforts to corner Johnson and land a jackpot punch. Two big right hands in round 15 staggered McVea, and more jabs and rights had him covering up in round 17. Sam initiated a series of wild attacks in the final three rounds, but to no avail. By the final bell, his face was a mass of lumps and swellings, while Jack had barely a mark on him.

    Johnson and McVea would clash again less than six months later, this time in San Francisco, and it was virtually a replay of their second meeting, the only difference being that in round 20, just before the final bell, Johnson scored a clean knockout.

    More 20-20 hindsight on my part but if JJ had taken the deal back in August and headed for Australia he and Lucille Cameron would have been out of the country.

    The October Chicago arrest wouldn't have been possible and they (the government) wouldn't have been able to question Cameron and would not have been able to figure out that Cameron had once been a pro.

    The November arrest for the Mann Act wouldn't have followed because its legal boiler plate was Cameron's history as a **********.

    Too bad it played out like it did.

    P.S. So who is Curley and how did he have the connection with JJ to eventually talk him into the Havana fight in 1915.

    Have you run across his name before?
    Last edited by Willie Pep 229; 09-27-2022, 01:21 PM.

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    • Lots of interesting historical material, Ivich.

      Thanks for posting it.
      Ivich Ivich likes this.

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      • Originally posted by HOUDINI563 View Post
        Monte Cox always praised Johnson for literally decades. He decides one day to be controversial and writes this drivel. Comparing Jones, really a lower skilled fighter, to Johnson who was classicly trained is a laugh riot.
        I know him a bit, I respect his contributions; and here, I agree with you.
        A great thread though!
        Last edited by Willow The Wisp; 09-27-2022, 02:02 PM.

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        • Originally posted by HOUDINI563 View Post
          Monte Cox always praised Johnson for literally decades. He decides one day to be controversial and writes this drivel. Comparing Jones, really a lower skilled fighter, to Johnson who was classicly trained is a laugh riot.
          You actually think Roy Jones Jr. was a lesser skilled fighter than Johnson, that's what's really humorous. But I'll consider the source.
          Dr. Z Dr. Z likes this.

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          • Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post

            More 20-20 hindsight on my part but if JJ had taken the deal back in August and headed for Australia he and Lucille Cameron would have been out of the country.

            The October Chicago arrest wouldn't have been possible and they (the government) wouldn't have been able to question Cameron and would not have been able to figure out that Cameron had once been a pro.

            The November arrest for the Mann Act wouldn't have followed because its legal boiler plate was Cameron's history as a **********.

            Too bad it played out like it did.

            P.S. So who is Curley and how did he have the connection with JJ to eventually talk him into the Havana fight in 1915.

            Have you run across his name before?
            Curley was a manager and promoter who dabbled in both boxing and wrestling he gradually got eased out of boxing by Rickard and concentrated more and more on wrestling.
            Willie Pep 229 Willie Pep 229 likes this.

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            • Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post

              You actually think Roy Jones Jr. was a lesser skilled fighter than Johnson, that's what's really humorous. But I'll consider the source.
              Yeah, he " thinks " Jones was a lesser skilled fighter. That should DQ HOUDINI563 from the forum.

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              • Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
                There was a lot of speculation that the Jeanette fight would never come off in NY, well before it was declared a no-go. McKetrick expressed his doubts about Johnson following through and whether the fight could even be held in NY. Johnson had backed out of fights in the past. He also didn't trust Johnson when it came to the forfeit. Apparently Johnson wanted someone in Chicago to hold the forfeit, which made no sense to McKetrick.

                https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...20/ed-1/seq-7/

                Johnson had every opportunity to offer Jeannette a shot in another state or country if had really wanted to fight him, in fact he all but knew the fight wouldn't be made in NY. The fact that he turned down a $20K offer from Jeannette the same year he accepted far less than $5K to fight Jim Johnson in Paris is all we need to know about Johnson's intentions.

                Interesting article. I can understand McKetrick's concerns about Johnson. I would argue that JJ was always difficult to deal with as he was both mistrusting and untrustworthy.

                Funny McKetrick didn't have the pull he thought he did. He promised JJ's forfeit money would be in the hands of a New Yorker (Gotham notable) but I read in one of the articles posted earlier that Johnson's forfeit money (5K) was posted with a Chicago gentleman after all. JJ probably got his money back.

                IMO The failure to fight Langford or Jeannette in Paris weights against him the most. The obstacles of racism were at their lowest in France. Those fights could have been made then.

                All the earlier deals had the sword of Damocles hanging over them from the get go.

                Even the Australian deal in 1911 looked good on paper but it doesn't look like anyone was stuffing bills into JJ's pockets except this guy Jack Curley who wanted the Flynn fight. JJ didn't seem excited with Australia, referring to it as having to go a 'distance.'

                And with the other deals, it looks they (the WS) weren't going to let New York happen.

                England had forced his departure so any of those deals were never going to see fruition either.

                But it's hard to come up for an excuse for JJ while in Paris 1913-1914.
                Last edited by Willie Pep 229; 09-28-2022, 06:23 PM.
                GhostofDempsey GhostofDempsey likes this.

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                • Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post
                  There was a lot of speculation that the Jeanette fight would never come off in NY, well before it was declared a no-go. McKetrick expressed his doubts about Johnson following through and whether the fight could even be held in NY. Johnson had backed out of fights in the past. He also didn't trust Johnson when it came to the forfeit. Apparently Johnson wanted someone in Chicago to hold the forfeit, which made no sense to McKetrick.

                  https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...20/ed-1/seq-7/

                  Johnson had every opportunity to offer Jeannette a shot in another state or country if had really wanted to fight him, in fact he all but knew the fight wouldn't be made in NY. The fact that he turned down a $20K offer from Jeannette the same year he accepted far less than $5K to fight Jim Johnson in Paris is all we need to know about Johnson's intentions.

                  RE the article and photo right below the McKetrick interview: "The Only Real White Hope" --> Al Palzer!

                  I don't think so . . . Lol

                  https://boxrec.com/en/proboxer/39622

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                  • Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post

                    Interesting article. I can understand McKetrick's concerns about Johnson. I would argue that JJ was always difficult to deal with as he was both mistrusting and untrustworthy.

                    Funny McKetrick didn't have the pull he thought he did. He promised JJ's forfeit money would be in the hands of a New Yorker (Gotham notable) but I read in one of the articles posted earlier that Johnson's forfeit money (5K) was posted with a Chicago gentleman after all. JJ probably got his money back.

                    IMO The failure to fight Langford or Jeannette in Paris weights against him the most. The obstacles of racism were at their lowest in France. Those fights could have been made then.

                    All the earlier deals had the sword of Damocles hanging over them from the get go.

                    Even the Australian deal in 1911 looked good on paper but it doesn't look like anyone was stuffing bills into JJ's pockets except this guy Jack Curley who wanted the Flynn fight. JJ didn't seem excited with Australia, referring to it as having to go a 'distance.'

                    And with the other deals, it looks they (the WS) weren't going to let New York happen.

                    England had forced his departure so any of those deals were never going to see fruition either.

                    But it's hard to come up for an excuse for JJ while in Paris 1913-1914.
                    Johnson who loved money took 1911 off and fought no one! He could have fought Langford, Jeannette, Mcvey. Or Gunboat Smith. There was talk of matching him vs Luther McCarty but he was too good and I doubt the match comes off. McCarty and Smith were the best of the " white hopes " but too good to get a match! Well we can speculate on McCarty as he did not live long enough. Yes--Johnson was dishonorable. Not even a signed contact was good enough for a fight if the other guy had some ability. Johnson did not make much money vs Jim Johnson in France. $ 5,000.00 I think. The Moran fight was a fiasco, Moran wasn't even paid. Johnson got his money for Willard and also got knocked out.

                    On a side topic Jack wasn't sure he could go 20 rounds vs Moran. He said so after the fight. He did of course with a lot of clinching and dirty fighting.
                    GhostofDempsey GhostofDempsey likes this.

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                    • Nice to read a post that isn't clouded by hatred. It's been suggested,by one of the haters, that Johnson could have fought Jeannette in1911 who did Jeannette beat that year to make him a viable contender?
                      He lost twice to Langford and could only draw with Jim Barry,and Tony Ross whom the two haters describe as rubbish.Johnson of course toyed with Ross,flooring him 3 times.

                      Gunboat Smith has also been named as a viable challenger in1911.That year he lost to and drew with 10-5-2 Charlie Miller,lost to 27-14-8 Jim Barry and was knocked out by journeyman Jack Geyer 11-3-1.
                      Last edited by Ivich; 09-29-2022, 08:17 AM.

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