Why Jack Johnson is Not as Great as You We’re Told

[Ivich]

They know this. Won't stop them from telling the same old lies though.

The 2nd McVey fight.


McVea knew that, given his disadvantages in terms of height and reach, his best chance of victory was to attack and force his way to the inside. The challenger charged with fury in the opening round, hoping to ambush his man, but all he got for his trouble was a hard right hand to the chin. The punch traveled just a few inches but it was powerful enough to award the otherwise sturdy McVea with the first knockdown of his career. The challenger beat the count and survived to both hear the bell and then receive a welcome dose of smelling salts.
Sam McVea
Following this, McVea decided that bull-rushing Johnson was no longer the strategy of choice. For the next few rounds Johnson called the tune while Sam kept a healthy distance, content to throw the occasional lead. Urged on by his corner, he picked up the pace in round five, but his offensive efforts only allowed Johnson to demonstrate his skill at blocking and parrying. And then in round six a right hand put McVea on his backside again.

Round seven saw Sam surprise Johnson with a rare telling blow, a quick straight left to the chin that put the champion on his heels, but in the eighth Jack regained control. Aware he was well behind on points, McVea doubled his efforts to force his way to the inside in rounds nine and ten, even provoking a shout from Johnson of, “See here, Sam, don’t you crowd me!” The exclamation was punctuated by a volley of stiff left jabs to McVea’s dour countenance.
Johnson and McVea square off prior to their first battle.
Credit to the challenger: he never stopped trying, but more slashing jabs and right crosses were all he received in return for his efforts to corner Johnson and land a jackpot punch. Two big right hands in round 15 staggered McVea, and more jabs and rights had him covering up in round 17. Sam initiated a series of wild attacks in the final three rounds, but to no avail. By the final bell, his face was a mass of lumps and swellings, while Jack had barely a mark on him.

Johnson and McVea would clash again less than six months later, this time in San Francisco, and it was virtually a replay of their second meeting, the only difference being that in round 20, just before the final bell, Johnson scored a clean knockout.

[travestyny]

The 2nd McVey fight.


McVea knew that, given his disadvantages in terms of height and reach, his best chance of victory was to attack and force his way to the inside. The challenger charged with fury in the opening round, hoping to ambush his man, but all he got for his trouble was a hard right hand to the chin. The punch traveled just a few inches but it was powerful enough to award the otherwise sturdy McVea with the first knockdown of his career. The challenger beat the count and survived to both hear the bell and then receive a welcome dose of smelling salts.
Sam McVea
Following this, McVea decided that bull-rushing Johnson was no longer the strategy of choice. For the next few rounds Johnson called the tune while Sam kept a healthy distance, content to throw the occasional lead. Urged on by his corner, he picked up the pace in round five, but his offensive efforts only allowed Johnson to demonstrate his skill at blocking and parrying. And then in round six a right hand put McVea on his backside again.

Round seven saw Sam surprise Johnson with a rare telling blow, a quick straight left to the chin that put the champion on his heels, but in the eighth Jack regained control. Aware he was well behind on points, McVea doubled his efforts to force his way to the inside in rounds nine and ten, even provoking a shout from Johnson of, “See here, Sam, don’t you crowd me!” The exclamation was punctuated by a volley of stiff left jabs to McVea’s dour countenance.
Johnson and McVea square off prior to their first battle.
Credit to the challenger: he never stopped trying, but more slashing jabs and right crosses were all he received in return for his efforts to corner Johnson and land a jackpot punch. Two big right hands in round 15 staggered McVea, and more jabs and rights had him covering up in round 17. Sam initiated a series of wild attacks in the final three rounds, but to no avail. By the final bell, his face was a mass of lumps and swellings, while Jack had barely a mark on him.

Johnson and McVea would clash again less than six months later, this time in San Francisco, and it was virtually a replay of their second meeting, the only difference being that in round 20, just before the final bell, Johnson scored a clean knockout.

McVey was an absolute monster!

Much respect for this post. I really enjoyed the read!

[GhostofDempsey]

All true. Like I said when he fought decent heavyweights in what could be viewed as their primes ( slight past it in two cases ) he lost. And in 1909 his absolute prime he suffered a TKO loss in a 4 round match exhibition, a 6 round news draws where others thought he lost and was floored by a crude middle weight! Later on he was lucky to draw with a journeyman! If this happened to Ali, good grief he would be picked apart. Larry Holmes would be viewed as a phony and Klitschko, well forget about it! All the time by ducking the best 4-5 men in title fights!

Hi best win was Ketchel, who knocked him down, and Jeffries who was coming off a 6 year retirement and had to lose 90 pounds. Once he was champ he avoided anyone who posed a legit threat until Willard cleaned his clock.

[Willie Pep 229]

1. www.nytimes.com › 1912/08/15 › archivesJOHNSON SIGNS TO FIGHT.; Champion Will Be Jeannette's ...
   
   
   CHICAGO, Aug. 14. -- Jack Johnson to-day signed articles to fight Joe Jeannette ten rounds before the St. Nicholas Club of New York on Sept. 23.

Interesting article.

August 14th 1912 would be 17 days after the Sims law was passed in Congress.

So any monies made from moving pictures would be limited to New York. If it was even shown.

I wonder if legal news traveled that fast. Did JJ know the reality when he signed.

You would think so since everyone had to know that the Feds, just around this time period, seized the Flynn fight film, to stop it from being shown.

New York had already turned down the JJ-Flynn fight, as did every other State where boxing was legal. The White Supremacists in Congress were bragging how they had cut off all of Johnson's revenue streams, (including moving pictures) and had banished the Flynn fight to East Las Vegas, New Mexico.

DIRGRESSION: New Mexico had just gained Statehood Janurary 1912 and it looks as though they didn't really care what the rest of the nation thought about mixed bouts. They had a dream that they were going to turn East Las Vegas into a State cash cow. The fight was the beginning of that promotion

But New York refused the Flynn fight because it was a 'mixed bout' and a Johnson-Jeannette fight wouldn't be.

So why did this fight get canceled?

The fight was scheduled for the 25th. That's only 40 days away. JJ fought Flynn on the 4th of July, so that would have been a little less than three months between defense.

A reasonable amount of time if JJ was staying in fighting shape.

Does anyone know Johnson's movements between early July and September?

Does anyone have a NYTimes article announcing that the fight is off?

[Ivich]

Interesting article.

August 14th 1912 would be 17 days after the Sims law was passed in Congress.

So any monies made from moving pictures would be limited to New York. If it was even shown.

I wonder if legal news traveled that fast. Did JJ know the reality when he signed.

You would think so since everyone had to know that the Feds, just around this time period, seized the Flynn fight film, to stop it from being shown.

New York had already turned down the JJ-Flynn fight, as did every other State where boxing was legal. The White Supremacists in Congress were bragging how they had cut off all of Johnson's revenue streams, (including moving pictures) and had banished the Flynn fight to East Las Vegas, New Mexico.

DIRGRESSION: New Mexico had just gained Statehood Janurary 1912 and it looks as though they didn't really care what the rest of the nation thought about mixed bouts. They had a dream that they were going to turn East Las Vegas into a State cash cow. The fight was the beginning of that promotion

But New York refused the Flynn fight because it was a 'mixed bout' and a Johnson-Jeannette fight wouldn't be.

So why did this fight get canceled?

The fight was scheduled for the 25th. That's only 40 days away. JJ fought Flynn on the 4th of July, so that would have been a little less than three months between defense.

A reasonable amount of time if JJ was staying in fighting shape.

Does anyone know Johnson's movements between early July and September?

Does anyone have a NYTimes article announcing that the fight is off?

On August 14th 1912 Johnson signed to fight Jeannette over 10 rds at the St Nicks Club NY .Ten rounds was the limit allowed in NY at that time.Johnson was guaranteed $25,000 and if the gate receipts reached $60,000, Johnson would receive $30,000 plus an additional 25% of any amount exceeding $60,000Johnson would also receive one half of the film rights.
Johnson placed a $5000 forfeit in the hands of Al Tearney should he not go through with the fight he would lose his$5000.
On August 22nd after a closed doors conference the McMahon Bros,promoters of the fight ,called off the fight.
Stating the AC Commissioners O Neill and Dixon refused to allow Johnson to box anyone in NY,threatening to revoke the licence of any promoter that staged the fight.
"Johnson has been booted out of nearly every state in the Union,it is believed his appearance here would bring odium to the sport of boxing"

New York Daily Times,New York Age,New York World August 22nd1912.

" The commissioners here don't want Johnson to appear in a match in New York City"
Edward McMahon Promoter.

" The commission decided long ago that Johnson would not be permitted to fight here.
We believe now ,as we did then that the presence of Johnson in a ring contest in this state would be inimical to the best interests of boxing,the status of which has greatly improved under the Frawley law."
Commissioner O Neill,The Freeman Aug31st 1912.


Robert Edgren of the New York World said this.
" The trouble is that whenever Johnson appears race rancor develops.It's better to keep Johnson out in Chicago where they seem to love him,than to have more San Juan Hill troubles here."

San Francisco Call & New York World August 23rd 1912.

Lester Walton of the New York Age criticized the commission.
" They were not clear as to how the leading exponent of the manly art would cause boxing to deteriorate,and it is hardly probable that they could explain it given an opportunity to do so.
Of course the action taken by the boxing commission was not due to Johnson's color.Such a charge would most likely be deemed unjust by them.But if the heavyweight champion was white,how different things would have been"

Victor Breyer a French promoter said he was prepared to offer Johnson $30,000 to fight Jeannette in Paris but that it would be over 30rds ,Jeannette was known as The Marathon Man no way was Johnson in his present condition,[he said he weighed 242lbs when he signed for the NY fight,but could lose20lbs and whip Jeannette over 10 rds easily,] going to take that offer. The offer was posted in The Freeman Sept 7th 1912.
Over a shorter distance Jeannette wasn't accorded mush of a chance withJohnson.
On Sept 2nd in Pittsburgh 197 1/2lbs Jeannette was clearly beaten in a NWS over 6 rds by 163 1/2lbs Jeff Clark.

[Dr. Z]

McVea knew that, given his disadvantages in terms of height and reach

In-accurate as Mcvey had a clear reach advantage.

Johnson and McVea would clash again less than six months later, this time in San Francisco, and it was virtually a replay of their second meeting, the only difference being that in round 20, just before the final bell, Johnson scored a clean knockout.

The third fight was a dud, not a replay of the 2nd fight.

The article fails to notice that Mcvey had very few fights on record and was a teenager! Do you think a green teenager would have a chance against a grown man? The victory as such is rather hollow. As world champion Johnson could have fought anywhere! England where he signed for fight Langford in 1909 but pulled out, or France or Australia. But Johnson didn't fight anywhere near prime versions of Mcvey, Langford, or Jeannette. Avoided and ducked they were while Johnson was champion form 1909-1915!

[Ivich]

McVey was an absolute monster!

Much respect for this post. I really enjoyed the read!

1st fight Johnson scaled 178lbs v McVey;203lbs

2nd fight Johnson scaled190lbs v McVey;205lbs Johnson floored McVey in the 1st rdand again in the 6th and dominated the action.
v McVey
3rd fight Johnson scaled190lbs v McVey 206lbs Johnson floored McVey in the 1st rd and stopped him in the 20th and last rd.
It doesnt appear that McVey, with the added experience of 2 fights with Johnson and a significant weight advantage in all 3 fights fared any better does it?
In fact he did worse!

The photo below is from their first fight 1903 , when Johnson was just 178lbs.
Later photos of him show him to be noticeably thicker in the shoulders and arms

[GhostofDempsey]

There was a lot of speculation that the Jeanette fight would never come off in NY, well before it was declared a no-go. McKetrick expressed his doubts about Johnson following through and whether the fight could even be held in NY. Johnson had backed out of fights in the past. He also didn't trust Johnson when it came to the forfeit. Apparently Johnson wanted someone in Chicago to hold the forfeit, which made no sense to McKetrick.

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...20/ed-1/seq-7/

Johnson had every opportunity to offer Jeannette a shot in another state or country if had really wanted to fight him, in fact he all but knew the fight wouldn't be made in NY. The fact that he turned down a $20K offer from Jeannette the same year he accepted far less than $5K to fight Jim Johnson in Paris is all we need to know about Johnson's intentions.

[Ivich]

Monte Cox always praised Johnson for literally decades. He decides one day to be controversial and writes this drivel. Comparing Jones, really a lower skilled fighter, to Johnson who was classicly trained is a laugh riot.

When you post a $5000 forfeit for a fight and do not go through with it your $5000 is forfeited ie you lose it.
That's why its called a forfeit!
A cash forfeit deposited in the hands of a neutral person is binding financial evidence of good faith that you intend to go through with the fight.
Johnson did this when he signed the agreement to defend his title against Jeannette in NY.1912
This is an incontrovertible and undeniable established fact.

Any smoke and mirrors denying this cold truth is agenda driven BS.

When Langford whipped (?) Jack Johnson | *************.com

[GhostofDempsey]

When you post a $5000 forfeit for a fight and do not go through with it your $5000 is forfeited ie you lose it.
That's why its called a forfeit!
A cash forfeit deposited in the hands of a neutral person is binding financial evidence of good faith that you intend to go through with the fight.
Johnson did this when he signed the agreement to defend his title against Jeannette in NY.1912
This is an incontrovertible and undeniable established fact.

Any smoke and mirrors denying this cold truth is agenda driven BS.

He also knew he would get his forfeit returned to him if the commission would not allow the fight, which he suspected from the beginning. He also tried to get people in Chicago to hold the forfeits, likely in an effort to keep the forfeits and make it difficult to chase those people down 1,000 miles away. He was in court a month prior in Chicago for smuggling a $9K diamond necklace into the country from Europe.

https://******iachronicle.com/?a=d&d...t-txIN--------

He was offered two-fight deal of $60K to go to Australia in Sep 1912 to fight Langford and either McVea or Jeannette, he chose not to fight for the remainder of 1912 and most of 1913 until finally meeting Jim Johnson in Dec 1913 and only earning about $1K...this, after turning down $20K for Jeannette earlier that year.

Albuquerque Morning Journal, 13 Sep 1912.