Why Jack Johnson is Not as Great as You We’re Told

[Ivich]

Yes of course but 227 is still emotionally better for him than to face Johnson at 265 lbs.

I don't think there was any weight that would have left Jeffries as confident as he was six years prior.

Joe Choynski believed Jeffries had a nervous breakdown just before the fight.
Brady, Jeffries ex manager said Jeffries was always leery of Johnson and did not want to fight him.

[Ivich]

Source and date unknown is from a quote further up the page. Stop grabbing for straws. It was so cordial and peaceful around here these last couple of days.

Nice being able to post BS without anyone correcting you?
Want to go back and establish which of us was the first to begin hostilities?
Determine which of us was the one who first dropped cordiality?
I can assure you it was YOU!
And now you've got a rabid little hater screaming liar !,liar! liar ! To keep you company I'm pleased for you!

Ready to admit Ross and Cotton fought not three times ,but four, and Ross won the first 3?
Or is that too much for you to swallow?

[GhostofDempsey]

Nice being able to post BS without anyone correcting you?
Want to go back and establish which of us was the first to begin hostilities?
Determine which of us was the one who first dropped cordiality?
I can assure you it was YOU!
And now you've got a rabid little hater screaming liar !,liar! liar ! To keep you company I'm pleased for you!

Ready to admit Ross and Cotton fought not three times ,but four, and Ross won the first 3?
Or is that too much for you to swallow?

I’m not playing your petty little hair splitting game. I’ve proved you wrong enough times where it really counts. The page I posted is real, as was Johnson’s book. You are a horrible communicator and we’re banned for your abrasive posts elsewhere.

[Ivich]

I don't! 20-20 hindsight.

What he did do, didn't work so you got to at least think through the other options.

IMO The problem with Jeffries coming in at 250+ (certainly at some level it would have affected his stamina, no doubt) was that the conventional wisdom of the day (and often today) would have perceived him as 'out-of-shape' and unprepared.

Jeffries wouldn't have known how to use the weight to his advantage, and more importantly would likely have believed the negative things being said of his weight.

But, and this is a big BUT -- look what Big George showed us! When Foreman began his comeback everyone was saying too big, too slow, too fat. He kept saying no this is where I want to be.

He had the confidence in himself to defy the the CW - learned to relax in the ring, and used his size to great advantage. All when the experts said he couldn't.

In theory Jeffries could have done the same, but mentally those around him would have convinced him he wasn't ready.

In short the larger size and the strength that went with the 250 lbs plus may well have neutralized JJ's clinching/in-fighting, but mentally it was important to Jeffries that he cut down to the fighting weight of his youth.

Prior to Johnson,Jeffries only fought one class man near his best who was anywhere near his size, Ruhlin 200lbs who suffered a panic attack after getting a couple of belts in the ribs.

[ShoulderRoll]

I don't! 20-20 hindsight.

What he did do, didn't work so you got to at least think through the other options.

IMO The problem with Jeffries coming in at 250+ (certainly at some level it would have affected his stamina, no doubt) was that the conventional wisdom of the day (and often today) would have perceived him as 'out-of-shape' and unprepared.

Jeffries wouldn't have known how to use the weight to his advantage, and more importantly would likely have believed the negative things being said of his weight.

But, and this is a big BUT -- look what Big George showed us! When Foreman began his comeback everyone was saying too big, too slow, too fat. He kept saying no this is where I want to be.

He had the confidence in himself to defy the the CW - learned to relax in the ring, and used his size to great advantage. All when the experts said he couldn't.

In theory Jeffries could have done the same, but mentally those around him would have convinced him he wasn't ready.

In short the larger size and the strength that went with the 250 lbs plus may well have neutralized JJ's clinching/in-fighting, but mentally it was important to Jeffries that he cut down to the fighting weight of his youth.

Foreman drew on the experience of 46 fights, though, and knew exactly where he was going with his plan.

Can't really see Jeffries with his whopping 19 fights having the boxing acumen to change up successfully.

What exactly have these unsubstantiated stories to do with Free Masonry?

I wasn't addressing Freemasonry specifically in that post, more responding to the statement about homosexuality being seen as an aristocratic vice in Britain that corrupted the lower-class youth.

[Ivich]

Foreman drew on the experience of 46 fights, though, and knew exactly where he was going with his plan.

Can't really see Jeffries with his whopping 19 fights having the boxing acumen to change up successfully.




I wasn't addressing Freemasonry specifically in that post, more responding to the statement about homosexuality being seen as an aristocratic vice in Britain that corrupted the lower-class youth.

So the aristocracy of England have corrupted English lower class youth?
You do know that *****phile ring you spoke of is fiction and that the only witness,"Nick" was convicted of perjury and imprisoned having confessed to making it up?
That Leon Britton,Paul Gambacini,Harvey Proctor,Ted Heath whom he claimed to have met and been abused by were all exonerated?

That there was found they had no case to answer ?
Leon Britton's Widow sued and received subastantial damages from two national newspapers?
That Gambacini and Proctor were awarded huge settlements against the BBC .

Ted Heath was dead by the time these false charges were brought,but it was pointed out that
as then PM his movements were always known 24/7and he had a body guard, a senior detective with him during all his waking hours,these bodyguards were on a rotation system.
We have proof that1 MP Cyril Smith abused boys and one TV personality, a piece of sewage named Jimmy Saville was into *****philia ,among other disgusting practices.
Some love to believe in conspiracies and require no proof of them to accept they are true.
They also happy to slander and libel both the dead and the living without a shred of evidence to substantiate their smears.
There is a word for such "people " but I can't use it here.

[Ivich]

I’m not playing your petty little hair splitting game. I’ve proved you wrong enough times where it really counts. The page I posted is real, as was Johnson’s book. You are a horrible communicator and we’re banned for your abrasive posts elsewhere.

I believe your page is real I never suggested otherwise ,I just said it is not in my edition whereupon both you and your camp follower Mendoza called me a liar.So drop the cordiality speech you hypocrite.
I repeatJohnson did not write that book and its a thrice translated load of crap!
Read Johnson's In the Ring And Out and realize that he contradicts everything in that comic.

EG We know Langford did not floor Johnson, We know Johnson went into print calling Langford a liar for suggesting he did ,and citing two reporters who were present at the fight Tad Dorgan and Fleischers Father in Law AD Phillips accounts as proof that Langford and his manager Sam Woodman lied.Woodman gave an interview to Fleischer in which he stated,"you caught me out Nat ,Sam didn't floor Johnson, I was just trying to drum up interest for a return go".
Langford later said,
"Johnson gave me the only real licking I ever took."

Now explain to me why Johnson would say Langford dropped him and that the fight was close?:

Mes Combats also says Hart beat Johnson and says Johnson admitted it. yet we have direct quotes from Jack immediately after the fight that totally and emphatically refute this! I have them here.
So also explain why Johnson would say that?
You can't and we both know it.I doubt you even believe it yourself. You will just use any devic,e any lie to propagate your hatred of the man

.News Flash !This does not diminish Johnson,but it sure puts you into perspective you little,back biting ,small minded nobody !

You haven't the guts to admit when you are wrong,that's okay, I already knew that,from your statement that I was a Langford hater,which I conclusively proved to be BS.

[Dr. Z]

I’m not playing your petty little hair splitting game. I’ve proved you wrong enough times where it really counts. The page I posted is real, as was Johnson’s book. You are a horrible communicator and we’re banned for your abrasive posts elsewhere.

Ivich was banned multiple times at East Side boxing.

[travestyny]

Ivich was banned multiple times at East Side boxing.

Was he banned for beating you guys down with facts? At least he backs up all of his takes.

[GhostofDempsey]

I believe your page is real I never suggested otherwise ,I just said it is not in my edition whereupon both you and your camp follower Mendoza called me a liar.So drop the cordiality speech you hypocrite.
I repeatJohnson did not write that book and its a trhice translated load of crap!
Read Johnson's In the Ring And Out and realize that he contradicts everything in that comic.

EG We know Langford did not floor Johnson, We know Johnson went into print calling Langford a liar for suggesting he did and citing two reporters who were present at the fight Tad Dorgan and Fleischers Father in Law AD Phillips accounts as proof that Langford and his manager Sam Woodman lied.Woodman gave an interview to Fleischer in which he stated,"you caught me out Nat Sam didn't floor Johnson, I was just trying to drum up interest for a return go".
Langford later said,
"Johnson gave me the only real licking I ever took."

Now explain to me why Johnson would say Langford dropped him and that the fight was close?:

Mes Combats also says Hart beat Johnson and says Johnson admitted it. yet we have direct quotes from Jack immediately after the fight that totally and emphatically refute this! I have them here.
So also explain why Johnson would say that?
You can't and we both know it.I doubt you even believe it yourself. You will just use any devic,e any lie to propagate your hatred of the man

.News Flash !This does not diminish Johnson,but it sure puts you into perspective you little,back biting ,small minded nobody !

You haven't the guts to admit when you are wrong,that's okay, I already knew that,from your statement that I was a Langford hater,which I conclusively proved to be BS.

You're a EUNUCH MATE!

You did not admit it was the page from Moyle’s book. You tried to deny it. This is what you and that other clown does anytime you are painted into a corner. Deny, deflect, change the topic or counter with a “what about this or that” question to steer away from where you were wrong so you can attempt to prove you were right about something else. It’s a tiresome game and very childish and feminine behavior.