James Toney; Most overrated fighter of the 90's?

[IronDanHamza]

This explains a lot. You might be the worst scorekeeper I've ever seen.

DLH over Sturm? Seriously?

Where I'm confused is here, Sonny says that he always agrees with the judge and he "believes he's only seen 6 or so bad decisions in 20,000+ fights"

Yet he said "Toney is 76-10-3 but IMO his record should be 82-6-1"

So correct me if I'm wrong but that means you believe the judges were wrong 6 times just in Toney's career alone because you believe Toney won 6 more fights than he was awarded.

So what sense does that make?

Or does is it only count when is a fighter you like?

[Scott9945]

Where I'm confused is here, Sonny says that he always agrees with the judge and he "believes he's only seen 6 or so bad decisions in 20,000+ fights"

Yet he said "Toney is 76-10-3 but IMO his record should be 82-6-1"

So correct me if I'm wrong but that means you believe the judges were wrong 6 times just in Toney's career alone because you believe Toney won 6 more fights than he was awarded.

So what sense does that make?

Or does is it only count when is a fighter you like?

I'd be delighted if there were only 6 bad decisions in a single year. Probably won't ever happen either.

[Ray Corso]

20,000+ fights? hahahaha...........thats a good one!

[billeau2]

James Toney clearly lost to Dave Tiberi. Not far off a tomato can if you ask me.

I have already answered your question and named numerous middleweights that performed just as good if not better than Toney at Heavyweight. Maybe not "champions" but that's just semantics. Toney was never a champion at HW anyway.

Toney by no means "hammered" Sam Peter he lost to him twice.

Billy Conn's record not only stacks up to Toney's I would say it's better than Toney's. Especially if we're talking wins and at 160 and above.

yeah but don't you think your overstating it when you say peter beat him easily the second time? And then saying you think Holy was past it? And...that first MCcallum fight i think Toney won, as do a lot of people....

My point is that you are explaining away quite a few Toney succeses in trying to make the argument that he was overrated. I mean on any one, or perhaps a few of these fights one might see it the way you do, but together? well...you see where I am going with this lol.

[Anthony342]

Sorry to say so, but yes it does. If you were to look back at posts i have made on this forum, you will see that several times i have said, "I have never seen more than six or so bad judges decisions in my life" and i have over 20,000+ fights.. To give you a few examples:

Fenech vs Nelson (1) i agree it was a draw
Eubank vs Benn (2) i agree it was a draw
Hagler vs Antuofermo (1) i agree it was a draw
Mayweather vs DeLaHoya - Mayweather won for me
Muhammad Ali vs Ken Norton (3) - Ali won for me
Delahoya vs Felix Sturm - Oscar won for me

Fights which i call terrible decisions:

Shannon Briggs vs George Foreman
Sven Otke vs Robin Reid

I agree 100% with the judges who judged Hagler vs Duran.

There it is again. You know, earlier you claimed you didn't say you had over 20,000 fights, but you just said it again above. Just saying.

And what about Paul Williams vs. Erislandy Lara? That has to be the worst decision I've ever seen.

[billeau2]

Holyfield went on to fight two world title fights?..
Toney vs Rahman 1 & 2... Toney hammered Rahman in their first fight. With Rahman quitting in their second fight, to avoid being KOd... those are dominant... Look at the scoring of the Jirov fight: 117-109, 116-110, 117-109 you cannot get much more dominant than that, against the No1 universally recognised best in the division.

Toney dominating: Jirov, Littles, Barkley, Holyfield, Rahman(twice), Ruiz, McCallum (2) scored 117-110,117-110, 114-114... McCallum (3)

All Dominant victories for James Toney

I agree with you Sonny. i think that this is just a disagreement because you guys are saying the same things over and over. One either agrees or not, I think you are on point, especially considering the Jirov and Holy win. He did dominate Holly and they were both older. this seals the deal for me..

You see...unlike Roy who people talk about becoming a champion at heavyweight...Roy beat one guy (won't get into a discussion about Ruiz its not relevant). Toney fought consistantly at heavyweight. I thought he edged Peter twice, etc.

Also, people are starting, I notice, to underestimate Nunn. Damn good fighter who would have given Jones a great fight. Hell of a win for Toney.

[billeau2]

Where I'm confused is here, Sonny says that he always agrees with the judge and he "believes he's only seen 6 or so bad decisions in 20,000+ fights"

Yet he said "Toney is 76-10-3 but IMO his record should be 82-6-1"

So correct me if I'm wrong but that means you believe the judges were wrong 6 times just in Toney's career alone because you believe Toney won 6 more fights than he was awarded.

So what sense does that make?

Or does is it only count when is a fighter you like?

You can't say something like that about the judges and not have it blow up in your face....you just can't!! and this is an example.

[Anthony342]

Most overrated? Well, do a lot of people call him an ATG? I've heard him called greatly skilled and Hall of Famer, but not ATG much. But most overrated? Maybe if a lot of people called him the best fighter of the '90s, but I've usually heard Roy Jones picked when discussing that, sometimes Oscar, occasionally Pernell.

James Toney is like Mickey said in the first Rocky. Had all this potential and threw it away, a lot of it anyway, to not train as hard as often as he could have.

[IronDanHamza]

yeah but don't you think your overstating it when you say peter beat him easily the second time? And then saying you think Holy was past it? And...that first MCcallum fight i think Toney won, as do a lot of people....

My point is that you are explaining away quite a few Toney succeses in trying to make the argument that he was overrated. I mean on any one, or perhaps a few of these fights one might see it the way you do, but together? well...you see where I am going with this lol.

Peter did beat him easily the second time. The first one was closer but he lost both.

Me saying Holyfield wasn't past it? Is that even up for debate that he was past it?

Yes I know a lot of people think Toney won the first one, I've said that. A lot of people also had McCallum winning. A lot of people had it a draw like myself. A draw was the fairest result

I don't see where you're going with this, what am I saying that isn't true?

[IronDanHamza]

Most overrated? Well, do a lot of people call him an ATG? I've heard him called greatly skilled and Hall of Famer, but not ATG much. But most overrated? Maybe if a lot of people called him the best fighter of the '90s, but I've usually heard Roy Jones picked when discussing that, sometimes Oscar, occasionally Pernell.

James Toney is like Mickey said in the first Rocky. Had all this potential and threw it away, a lot of it anyway, to not train as hard as often as he could have.

Do a lot of people call him an ATG? Take a skim through this thread and ask yourself that again.

Almost everyone who's posted here thinks I'm bat**** crazy for even suggesting otherwise.

We've got a handful of people saying "If Toney stayed in shape he'd be one of the greatest fighters of all time"

Despite the fact when he was allegedly "in shape" at Middleweight he struggled with Sanderline Williams and Merqui Sosa, he very arguably lost to Refgie Johnson and his one good win at the weight against Micheal Nunn he was being easily beaten before the come from behind KO. He also lost clearly to Dave Tiberi, but they say he was out of shape for that middleweight bout.

So if that's not overrated then what is?