James Toney; Most overrated fighter of the 90's?

[sonnyboyx2]

"If he didn't have an eating disorder he would have gone down as one of the greatest fighters in history"

That statment alone right there literally proves my point at how ridiculously overrated he is.

One of the greatest fighters ever if he was "in shape" yet while in shape he very arguably lost to Reggie Johnson and Dave Tiberi and failed to dominate Sanderline Williams or Merqui Sosa while he was "In shape".

Reggie Johnson boxed circles around "in shape" Toney for the first 5 rounds and made him look amateurish for the entire fight. Yet you're telling me that if he was "In shape" he'd be one of the greatest fighters ever?

You keep asking me the same specific question. It's like asking me to name another fighter who was a 4 weight world champion by age 26 other than Adrien Broner. No one. Therefore Adrien Broner can't be overrated. It's ridiculous logic.

There may not be many MW "champions" that moved up to HW but there's plenty of MW's that did and did better than Toney at HW. Asking for a MW " "champion" is just you being pedantic. I've answered your question numerous times.

You can reel off all the nice looking stats on paper all you want. 10 time Champion, 100 time fighter of the year winner, Eddie Futch and Ray Arcel said he's the greatest, 1000 time MW Champion-Losing to heavyweight contenders award winner.

Yet after all that, he still has zero dominant and impressive performances over a top level opponent.

How does having an eating disorder prove your point?..

Reggie Johnson beat James Toney in your mind ONLY.. because he certainly never beat him in the minds of the judges or in my mind. Toney came back from a knock down to dominate Johnson.

I ask you to name me another 160 champion who moved up to 200lbs and bettered Toney's achievements against the heavyweights. You come up with Billy Conn, well Conn couldn't hold a candle to James Toney. I also seriously doubt Chris Byrd or Eddie Mustapha would have much chance against him.

You keep saying Toney never had a dominant performance against a top level opponent:... Well what was his performances against Charles Williams & Evander Holyfield?.. Holyfield going on to fight two world title fights.. what was his performance against Nunn & Jirov?... what about No1 contender Tim Littles?... name me another fighter in any weight class, in any era of the sport, who could have done what Toney done against Tim Littles?.. a 3ins gash above his eye, blooding pouring down his face and the doctor and referee saying, "You have to the end of this round only James"... Toney went after Littles with murder on his mind. knocking out Littles before the bell sounded.. That is the mark of a great champion.

So your assumption he has not a dominant performance to his name, over a top quality opponent is wrong... Boxing is not about being dominant, boxing is about winning. One on One highest form of unarmed combat, 12 rounds, level weights. speed, skills, boxing ability are what counts. Not dominance... Who was Joe Frazier ever dominant over?... What about Marvin Hagler, who was he ever dominant over?...Frazier & Hagler gritted their teeth and made it a fight to the finish, even against mediocre opponents.

[IronDanHamza]

How does having an eating disorder prove your point?..

Reggie Johnson beat James Toney in your mind ONLY.. because he certainly never beat him in the minds of the judges or in my mind. Toney came back from a knock down to dominate Johnson.

I ask you to name me another 160 champion who moved up to 200lbs and bettered Toney's achievements against the heavyweights. You come up with Billy Conn, well Conn couldn't hold a candle to James Toney. I also seriously doubt Chris Byrd or Eddie Mustapha would have much chance against him.

You keep saying Toney never had a dominant performance against a top level opponent:... Well what was his performances against Charles Williams & Evander Holyfield?.. Holyfield going on to fight two world title fights.. what was his performance against Nunn & Jirov?... what about No1 contender Tim Littles?... name me another fighter in any weight class, in any era of the sport, who could have done what Toney done against Tim Littles?.. a 3ins gash above his eye, blooding pouring down his face and the doctor and referee saying, "You have to the end of this round only James"... Toney went after Littles with murder on his mind. knocking out Littles before the bell sounded.. That is the mark of a great champion.

So your assumption he has not a dominant performance to his name, over a top quality opponent is wrong... Boxing is not about being dominant, boxing is about winning. One on One highest form of unarmed combat, 12 rounds, level weights. speed, skills, boxing ability are what counts. Not dominance... Who was Joe Frazier ever dominant over?... What about Marvin Hagler, who was he ever dominant over?...Frazier & Hagler gritted their teeth and made it a fight to the finish, even against mediocre opponents.

No the fact he has an eating disorder doesn't prove my point obviously you fact you are claiming if he didn't have one he'd be one the greatest fighter ever proves my point.

There is nothing to suggest that what so ever.

Reggie Johnson beat him in my mind only? Erm not really because one judge had Reggie winning.

Toney came back to dominate after the knock down? What an absolutely absurd statment. Johnson boxed circles around Toney for the first 5 rounds. He won the first 4 rounds in dominant fashion. Even the later rounds that Toney was edging, Johnson STILL made Toney look like a complete amateur making him miss wildly with ease.

Many felt Johnson won, just as I did and one of the judges. Johnson has more than a good argument for winning that fight.

And for the 5th time I have answered your question. Billy Conn can't hold a candle to Toney? Totally disagrees. Conn had a better career.

If boxing is about "winning" then why don't you acknowledge Toney's loss's to Tiberi, Thadzi and two loss's to Montel Griffin? Why do you pretend these didn't happen?

Boxing is not only about "winning" at all. How you win and how you perform is a big factor.

It is not an assumption to say Toney has no dominant and impressive performances against a top opponent that's a fact. He doesn't. He doesn't have a single fight against a top opponent that dominated. Zero.

Sanderline Williams he drew against.

Sosa he edged in a close fight.

Tiberi he lost

Johnson he edged in a close fight.

McCallum he drew and edged in a close fight

Griffin he lost twice

Roy Jones he lost

Thadzi he lost

You could make an argument he lost every fight above.

I'll concede that he knocked out Nunn and Williams which are both good wins but once again in both fights he struggled.

So after that we have Littles and Barkley yeah, enough said.

[sonnyboyx2]

No the fact he has an eating disorder doesn't prove my point obviously you fact you are claiming if he didn't have one he'd be one the greatest fighter ever proves my point.

There is nothing to suggest that what so ever.

Reggie Johnson beat him in my mind only? Erm not really because one judge had Reggie winning.

Toney came back to dominate after the knock down? What an absolutely absurd statment. Johnson boxed circles around Toney for the first 5 rounds. He won the first 4 rounds in dominant fashion. Even the later rounds that Toney was edging, Johnson STILL made Toney look like a complete amateur making him miss wildly with ease.

Many felt Johnson won, just as I did and one of the judges. Johnson has more than a good argument for winning that fight.

And for the 5th time I have answered your question. Billy Conn can't hold a candle to Toney? Totally disagrees. Conn had a better career.

If boxing is about "winning" then why don't you acknowledge Toney's loss's to Tiberi, Thadzi and two loss's to Montel Griffin? Why do you pretend these didn't happen?

Boxing is not only about "winning" at all. How you win and how you perform is a big factor.

It is not an assumption to say Toney has no dominant and impressive performances against a top opponent that's a fact. He doesn't. He doesn't have a single fight against a top opponent that dominated. Zero.

Sanderline Williams he drew against.

Sosa he edged in a close fight.

Tiberi he lost

Johnson he edged in a close fight.

McCallum he drew and edged in a close fight

Griffin he lost twice

Roy Jones he lost

Thadzi he lost

You could make an argument he lost every fight above.

I'll concede that he knocked out Nunn and Williams which are both good wins but once again in both fights he struggled.

So after that we have Littles and Barkley yeah, enough said.

Holyfield went on to fight two world title fights?..
Toney vs Rahman 1 & 2... Toney hammered Rahman in their first fight. With Rahman quitting in their second fight, to avoid being KOd... those are dominant... Look at the scoring of the Jirov fight: 117-109, 116-110, 117-109 you cannot get much more dominant than that, against the No1 universally recognised best in the division.

Toney dominating: Jirov, Littles, Barkley, Holyfield, Rahman(twice), Ruiz, McCallum (2) scored 117-110,117-110, 114-114... McCallum (3)

All Dominant victories for James Toney

[IronDanHamza]

Holyfield went on to fight two world title fights?..
Toney vs Rahman 1 & 2... Toney hammered Rahman in their first fight. With Rahman quitting in their second fight, to avoid being KOd... those are dominant... Look at the scoring of the Jirov fight: 117-109, 116-110, 117-109 you cannot get much more dominant than that, against the No1 universally recognised best in the division.

Toney dominating: Jirov, Littles, Barkley, Holyfield, Rahman(twice), Ruiz, McCallum (2) scored 117-110,117-110, 114-114... McCallum (3)

All Dominant victories for James Toney

Holyfield went on to have two world title fights? Ok so? He lost his next fight after Toney to Larry Donald.

McCallum 2 a dominant victory? Hilarious. No where close to dominant.

Jirov was far from dominant. That was a back and forth war.

Rahman was a draw, Ruiz was a NC.

McCallum 3 he was finished.

So you're left with Littles and Barkley. Neither are top opponents.

So we're left with zero over top opponents.

You keep using scorecards to justify fights then refuse to acknowledge the scorecards for Griffin 1 and 2. Which over both fights and 6 scorecards not a single card had Toney winning.

You then say "only in my mind" did Johnson beat Toney yet one judge had Johnson winning as did many of the crowd who boo'd the decision and many of the fans.

[ShoulderRoll]

One final thing... Jones is not atg primarily by virtue of his resume... It's primarily because of the eye test... Even the most untrained of eyes sees he was a special fighter. Then, his resume, still very good, is sufficient enough for an awe inspiring specimen of a fighter that he was in his prime to be considered atg.

I would agree with this somewhat. If we're going just by his resume alone then he ranks lower.

But if you also take into account the things he was able to do in the ring then he deserves to be ranked higher. There have been few, if any, boxers with those same gifts before him. And in my opinion there haven't been any since.

[robertzimmerman]

How does having an eating disorder prove your point?..

Reggie Johnson beat James Toney in your mind ONLY.. because he certainly never beat him in the minds of the judges or in my mind. Toney came back from a knock down to dominate Johnson.

I ask you to name me another 160 champion who moved up to 200lbs and bettered Toney's achievements against the heavyweights. You come up with Billy Conn, well Conn couldn't hold a candle to James Toney. I also seriously doubt Chris Byrd or Eddie Mustapha would have much chance against him.

You keep saying Toney never had a dominant performance against a top level opponent:... Well what was his performances against Charles Williams & Evander Holyfield?.. Holyfield going on to fight two world title fights.. what was his performance against Nunn & Jirov?... what about No1 contender Tim Littles?... name me another fighter in any weight class, in any era of the sport, who could have done what Toney done against Tim Littles?.. a 3ins gash above his eye, blooding pouring down his face and the doctor and referee saying, "You have to the end of this round only James"... Toney went after Littles with murder on his mind. knocking out Littles before the bell sounded.. That is the mark of a great champion.

So your assumption he has not a dominant performance to his name, over a top quality opponent is wrong... Boxing is not about being dominant, boxing is about winning. One on One highest form of unarmed combat, 12 rounds, level weights. speed, skills, boxing ability are what counts. Not dominance... Who was Joe Frazier ever dominant over?... What about Marvin Hagler, who was he ever dominant over?...Frazier & Hagler gritted their teeth and made it a fight to the finish, even against mediocre opponents.

An absolutely fantastic post.

I agree entirely with everything you've written.

[Scott9945]

Holyfield went on to have two world title fights? Ok so? He lost his next fight after Toney to Larry Donald.

McCallum 2 a dominant victory? Hilarious. No where close to dominant.

Jirov was far from dominant. That was a back and forth war.

Rahman was a draw, Ruiz was a NC.

McCallum 3 he was finished.

So you're left with Littles and Barkley. Neither are top opponents.

So we're left with zero over top opponents.

You keep using scorecards to justify fights then refuse to acknowledge the scorecards for Griffin 1 and 2. Which over both fights and 6 scorecards not a single card had Toney winning.

You then say "only in my mind" did Johnson beat Toney yet one judge had Johnson winning as did many of the crowd who boo'd the decision and many of the fans.

The Donald fight was a total route, and almost everyone wrote off Evander after that. That he got two title fights in Russia after that is a tribute to his name value only.

I felt that Rahman beat Toney in their first fight, despite what that heavily biased poster with a taste for fiction says.

[sonnyboyx2]

Holyfield went on to have two world title fights? Ok so? He lost his next fight after Toney to Larry Donald.

McCallum 2 a dominant victory? Hilarious. No where close to dominant.

Jirov was far from dominant. That was a back and forth war.

Rahman was a draw, Ruiz was a NC.

McCallum 3 he was finished.

So you're left with Littles and Barkley. Neither are top opponents.

So we're left with zero over top opponents.

You keep using scorecards to justify fights then refuse to acknowledge the scorecards for Griffin 1 and 2. Which over both fights and 6 scorecards not a single card had Toney winning.

You then say "only in my mind" did Johnson beat Toney yet one judge had Johnson winning as did many of the crowd who boo'd the decision and many of the fans.

Holyfield losing to Larry Donald is no disgrace. It's how Holyfield lost his fights. Against James Toney he was completely dominated, then knocked out.

Yes McCallum (2) was a dominant victory going by the judges scorecards, with two judges having Toney winning by 7rds... if that is not dominant then i don't know what is.

Your argument is flawed, i have pointed out to you several fights which Toney won (dominant) yet you are twisting it around to suit your agenda...

is 7rds a dominant victory?
Holyfield was a dominant victory..
Barkley was a dominant victory...
Jirov was a dominant victory...
Nunn was a dominant victory...
Adolpho Washington ranked No5 was dominant victory..
Tim Littles ranked No1 was dominant victory...
McCallum 2 & 3 both dominant victories...
Dominick Guinn dominant victory...
John Ruiz dominant victory..
Charles Williams dominant victory
Tony Thornton dominant victory...
Merqui Sosa was a dominant victory...

All the above fights were won by James Toney. A case cannot be made to claim the opponent won..

[The Old LefHook]

Lots of laughs in this thread. Sonny has Toney over McCallum--in dominant fashion, no less. Yet according to big Sonny, Hagler's victory over Duran was razor thin. Just another instance of a fanboy using cheap imitation logic to smear those he dislikes and crown those he favors. See it for what it is, folks. Recognize hypocrisy when it is laid before you. Get the smell and the look of it for future reference.

Sonny's comeback will be that the judges had Hagler/Duran close. You always know a man with no arguments when he resorts to what someone else has said as his own argument. Like Sonny, such churls use things like accolades received, honors, championships won whenever it suits them, but then accuse others they disagree with of being know-nothings who get all their information from record books.

Like Sonny, such liars and dishonest churls try to make their points, for instance, through the fact that Holyfield won two championships after the Toney fight, dishonestly and purposefully withholding the fact that Holy lost his next two fights, as well, simply because he knew this information weakened his own opinion that Toney's victory over Holyfield was a great one. That was the worst looking Holyfield anyone ever saw in a ring, and to pretend that he was anything but a shadow of a shell at that monent in time because of what he did later, is mockery. I believe there is no other version of Holyfield that Toney could have beaten at any time in their careers, present version excepted.

When a man is sick and his mind is poisoned by doubts of his own health because of the way he is feeling, he is not such a trick to beat for another good fighter. Watching Holyfield, it seems many lower weight class fighters might have beaten him that night. Though I never heard of a fighter yet who did not say he was in tip top shape and felt better than ever before a fight. I only mention that because it was Sonny's next response. He will tell you what Holyfield said before the fight. Why? He has no real arguments. He likes to tell you what some trainer said about their boy, too, as if all trainers do not say the same thing.

See the weak arguments of hypocrisy for what they are, folks--the drivel of churls.

[sonnyboyx2]

Lots of laughs in this thread. Sonny has Toney over McCallum--in dominant fashion, no less. Yet according to big Sonny, Hagler's victory over Duran was razor thin. Just another instance of a fanboy using cheap imitation logic to smear those he dislikes and crown those he favors. See it for what it is, folks. Recognize hypocrisy when it is laid before you. Get the smell and the look of it for future reference.

Sonny's comeback will be that the judges had Hagler/Duran close. You always know a man with no arguments when he resorts to what someone else has said as his own argument. Like Sonny, such churls use things like accolades received, honors, championships won whenever it suits them, but then accuse others they disagree with of being know-nothings who get all their information from record books.

Like Sonny, such liars and dishonest churls try to make their points, for instance, through the fact that Holyfield won two championships after the Toney fight, dishonestly and purposefully withholding the fact that Holy lost his next two fights, as well, simply because he knew this information weakened his own opinion that Toney's victory over Holyfield was a great one. That was the worst looking Holyfield anyone ever saw in a ring, and to pretend that he was anything but a shadow of a shell at that monent in time because of what he did later, is mockery. I believe there is no other version of Holyfield that Toney could have beaten at any time in their careers, present version excepted.

When a man is sick and his mind is poisoned by doubts of his own health because of the way he is feeling, he is not such a trick to beat for another good fighter. Watching Holyfield, it seems many lower weight class fighters might have beaten him that night. Though I never heard of a fighter yet who did not say he was in tip top shape and felt better than ever before a fight. I only mention that because it was Sonny's next response. He will tell you what Holyfield said before the fight. Why? He has no real arguments. He likes to tell you what some trainer said about their boy, too, as if all trainers do not say the same thing.

See the weak arguments of hypocrisy for what they are, folks--the drivel of churls.

Haha.. so say's ****ing Paul McKenna.. :blow: just like always, you are completely wrong in all that you put into print...

Holyfield lost to Heavyweight contender and former world title challenger Larry Donald. You obviously would know nothing whatsoever about Larry Donald, in fact you most likely have never heard of Larry Donald. Holyfield then won his next four fights (You claimed he lost his next).. Holyfield then went to Russia were he was outpointed for The WBO World Title. He then fought 7'0'' Nickolay Valuev in Switzerland losing a close decision, with most ringside reporters feeling Holyfield was robbed. Holyfield finished his career in 2011 with KO victories over Frans Botha & Brien Neilson in Denmark. This being 8yrs after his KO loss to James Toney. Holyfields World Title challenges against Ibragamov & Valuev being 5yrs after being KOd by Toney... You have even made claim Holyfield WON those two world title fights???... How can you be taken seriously?.. you have most likely never seen a Holyfield fight in your life... You claim Holyfield was in the worst condition of his life against Toney?... Show proof of your quote!... There is more chance of me dating Madonna than you showing proof.. LOL.. your a cartoon character and your pizzed oft having to read how wrong you are and how Toney dominated Holyfield, like Duran dominated Hagler rds 8,9,10,11,12,13, & 14

Duran lost a razor thin decision to Hagler.. that hurts you. it hurts you deep inside, knowing Hagler struggled to beat a lightweight. It hurts you because Hagler is your hero, you argue repeatedly on the forums that Ray Leonard was beaten by Hagler. LOL... you make claim that Hagler was past it and Leonard chose his moment. But Hagler was only 32yrs old. James Toney was 35yrs old when he knocked **** out of Holyfield. Toney is 47yrs old now and still fighting.

Here is a couple of posts you made on Hagler LOL

1/ "Prime Marvin bounced forward. He did not just bounce a little, he bounced high because he was confident and it was part of his rhythm. When you are in the air you cannot do anything until you come down. After you do, you then have to turn to do anything back to the man who has sidestepped.""

2/ "Hagler was a rough fighter. He was not dirty, he just treated you roughly all the time. His body was made of black marble and the shores of his coastline were hard enough to break a man up."... LOL

After reading those two comments you posted, well i have really upset your stomach LOL


You are the laughing stock of the forum. Nothing you make claim of is ever taken seriously, because you are known as someone who cannot debate boxing, because you have watched no boxing fights. You claimed Hagler won by at least 10rds LOL... You claimed the judges didn't know how to judge a fight LOL.. Your a first class, top of the league cartoon character. You have tried to convince posters here in this thread, that you can "Mind read".. That you have super natural powers, that give you insight into how others think and operate... LOL