Greatest Super-Middle of All Times

[New England]

i want to take this opportunity to quickly pay homage to kelly pavlik.

pavlik had an iron chin, serious power, and a very long jab. he was a tall, hard punching MW, and you'd better have good boxing skills or a great chin to handle him. his fights with taylor [I] and miranda were instant classics. the miranda fight was an oldschool slugfest from the starting bell.

the martinez fight was also fantastic.

pavlik gets a bad wrap because of the way he squandered the end of his career. alcoholism is no joke. it's a powerful, powerful vice that has the ability to drive a man away from a world championship level boxing career, and millions of dollars.


i hope kelly can sober up in time. i'd love to see him regain some of the esteem he had in his prime. he was a dude worthy of respect, and that's gone now.

[New England]

Ward should have been penalized against Kessler, objectively speaking. He kept holding him and coming in with his head first. Bad refereeing.

i don't think the reffing was great, but the holding that ward did was greatly exaggerated, almost as much as the headbutts were.


i had bad definition when i watched the first seven rounds of the fight yesterday, and it was in danish, but i couldn't see a cut. i think the cut first opened in the 8th round. how do you explain the fact that ward boxed his doors off from the outside when his face was clear?


and onto the holding:
watch the fight without your european tinted glasses on. just suspend all of that for a second and watch the clinches closely. andre ward rushes all the way in and holds, but he ussually tries to keep a hand free after that. he did it in the kessler fight, especially later on. he's gotten even better at it. he keeps his hands close to his chest, moves his head and upper body to safe spots, and works. when he can't work [often because his opponent is actually trying to tie him up once he gets all the way inside,] he walks his guy to the ropes.



let's try and suspend our biases and be objective, guys. if you watch that fight and think "wow, ward is doing nothing but using his head and holding," or, "all of these clinches are andre ward's fault," you are doing it wrong.

[IronDanHamza]

i'm mostly just ruffling feathers, but i do think you have a slanted view on carl froch.


considering that you weren't a cobra man early on, i have to bring it up

Ha, yeah admittedly I am a fan of Froch now, a big fan I would say as opposed to the complete opposite from 2007-2011.

But still, I try to keep it as unbiased as possible.

Ward's the better fighter, no doubts there. And when all said it done I doubt there will be an argument on who's resume is better. I said the same in 2012 can't believe it's 2015 and Ward's still there. But, he's out of his contract now.

[New England]

Let's also not forget Ward entered the bout with a broken left hand in two places and dominated Froch. That was something.

how soon we forget!

let god's light shine down on us.

[IronDanHamza]

i want to take this opportunity to quickly pay homage to kelly pavlik.

pavlik had an iron chin, serious power, and a very long jab. he was a tall, hard punching MW, and you'd better have good boxing skills or a great chin to handle him. his fights with taylor [I] and miranda were instant classics. the miranda fight was an oldschool slugfest from the starting bell.

the martinez fight was also fantastic.

pavlik gets a bad wrap because of the way he squandered the end of his career. alcoholism is no joke. it's a powerful, powerful vice that has the ability to drive a man away from a world championship level boxing career, and millions of dollars.


i hope kelly can sober up in time. i'd love to see him regain some of the esteem he had in his prime. he was a dude worthy of respect, and that's gone now.

He have Martinez a good fight, people tend to forget that.

He dropped him, and in the mid rounds make adjustments that Martinez was clearly struggling with, it was anyone's fight going IMO then later rounds when Martinez pulled through.

At 160, Pavlik was a very good fighter.

[New England]

He have Martinez a good fight, people tend to forget that.

He dropped him, and in the mid rounds make adjustments that Martinez was clearly struggling with, it was anyone's fight going IMO then later rounds when Martinez pulled through.

At 160, Pavlik was a very good fighter.

martinez was a unique fighter. he balanced that "pretty boy" boxer / slickster stuff with being tough as nails. he was also extremely humble once he got out of the ring.


if i were that fast, and that good looking, i'd be freaking insufferable

[joseph5620]

i want to take this opportunity to quickly pay homage to kelly pavlik.

pavlik had an iron chin, serious power, and a very long jab. he was a tall, hard punching MW, and you'd better have good boxing skills or a great chin to handle him. his fights with taylor [I] and miranda were instant classics. the miranda fight was an oldschool slugfest from the starting bell.

the martinez fight was also fantastic.

pavlik gets a bad wrap because of the way he squandered the end of his career. alcoholism is no joke. it's a powerful, powerful vice that has the ability to drive a man away from a world championship level boxing career, and millions of dollars.


i hope kelly can sober up in time. i'd love to see him regain some of the esteem he had in his prime. he was a dude worthy of respect, and that's gone now.

At one time he was a scary fighter in the ring. During that time I thought he would have been at the top for a good period of time.

[billeau2]

i don't think the reffing was great, but the holding that ward did was greatly exaggerated, almost as much as the headbutts were.


i had bad definition when i watched the first seven rounds of the fight yesterday, and it was in danish, but i couldn't see a cut. i think the cut first opened in the 8th round. how do you explain the fact that ward boxed his doors off from the outside when his face was clear?


and onto the holding:
watch the fight without your european tinted glasses on. just suspend all of that for a second and watch the clinches closely. andre ward rushes all the way in and holds, but he ussually tries to keep a hand free after that. he did it in the kessler fight, especially later on. he's gotten even better at it. he keeps his hands close to his chest, moves his head and upper body to safe spots, and works. when he can't work [often because his opponent is actually trying to tie him up once he gets all the way inside,] he walks his guy to the ropes.



let's try and suspend our biases and be objective, guys. if you watch that fight and think "wow, ward is doing nothing but using his head and holding," or, "all of these clinches are andre ward's fault," you are doing it wrong.

European fighters in particular, but most contemporary fighters don't utilize fighting inside and even think it is illegal. Ward is highly skilled at this range. Kessler is a perfect example of a fighter who has no concept of either how to fight inside, or how to deal with a fighter who specializes at that range. So yeah....Kessler got beat up, but 95% of that beating was legal infighting. One hand free is allowed and the fighter can work from that position. What Ward did essentially is to not deal with matching skills with Kessler at a range where Kessler has skills....thats called fighting smart.

[ShoulderRoll]

I thought Ward did match skills with Kessler at long range and beat him there too. It just so happens that he was more one-sidely dominant on the inside which is what people seem to remember.

[joseph5620]

I thought Ward did match skills with Kessler at long range and beat him there too. It just so happens that he was more one-sidely dominant on the inside which is what people seem to remember.

Ward beat him inside and outclassed Kessler outside too. People can rewrite history and make all of the excuses they want about headbutts, Oakland, the referee.

Kessler was outclassed that night.