was dempsey a bum?

[HOUDINI563]

Watch the bouts instead of guessing. Tunney boxed and clinched vs Dempsey. Very little lateral movement aside from round 7 of bout 2. Dempsey had Tunney out in round 7 in 1927.

With Gibbons he covered up and clinched Dempsey for 15 rounds. Dempsey once he realized he would not ko Gibbons boxed cleverly for the decision win. Tunney stated it was Dempseys greatest performance.

[cfang]

All true but wills was number 1 in those rankings for the first two years. Wills had 30 odd fights from 19-26 and bar a dq was unbeaten. He was the top contender from 22-26 and not given his shot for whatever reason. Dempsey has a very weak title reign, lt heavys, guys hed beaten already and firpo. 5 defences in 6 years.

Dempsey was no bum, he was a great fighter but for me he does not have the resume of a lot of heavy champs. He may have beaten wills, i doubt it.

[HOUDINI563]

Actually your viewpoint is only true looking back with today’s eyes. With no historical context.

Dempseys title reign is similar to most prior heavyweight champions. Most took the title on the road fighting exhibitions as did Dempsey. Most spent time drawing audiences appearing the theatre, plays, vaudeville. With Dempsey the new media was motion pictures. So in the end it’s absolutely critical to look at any history in the context of the time it occurred and not project different era norms upon it.

[HOUDINI563]

Very few in the know gave Wills a real chance in reality to beat Dempsey. Ray Arcel the greatest of boxing trainers who watched Dempsey from ringside starting in 1916 and worked with Wills trainer for years termed Wills a “Journeyman” in ability and stated he was not very fast. Those big slow moving opponents were Dempseys meat. Dempsey was incredibly quick and had terrific power. Jack Sharkey stated the following regarding Dempsey:

“I never knew anyone could hit that hard. He would come at you in a little ball and when he hit you on the shoulder he broke your shoulder. When he hit you to the body it felt as if his fist was coming out your back. When he hit your hip he dislocated your hip”

[Rusty Tromboni]

Watch the bouts instead of guessing. Tunney boxed and clinched vs Dempsey. Very little lateral movement aside from round 7 of bout 2. Dempsey had Tunney out in round 7 in 1927.

With Gibbons he covered up and clinched Dempsey for 15 rounds. Dempsey once he realized he would not ko Gibbons boxed cleverly for the decision win. Tunney stated it was Dempseys greatest performance.

Boxed? What does that mean? No he didn't constantly circle like RObinson or Lomachenko, but how'd he get himself off he ropes? Mostly, and I appreciate you proving my point, he didn't have to rely on his finer footwork because he had no trouble causing Jack to lunge and chase. You think that is refined!? What gym did you train in that taught that? Not David Tua bad, I concede, but Dempsey should've been firing off his jab and varying his rhythym and angles. He was too predictable. Tunney does a rinse-n-repeat for 10 rounds.

It's fshionable to say a Toldeo Dempsey would fare better, just like people usedto say frazier only lost to Foreman because he was washed up. Obviously Dempsey was better in Toldeo, quicker for sure, but Willard had no fookin clue what to do. In fact, it's pretty clear he had no idea what sort of challenger he was in there with. Tunney wasn't at his best either. He was still a work in progress when he beat Dempsey. But the point is, Tunney would always be able to time Jack, and lead him around the ring.

If you think Tunney wasn't effusive in his praise of Dempsey, you're crazy. His entire claim to fame wasn't besting Greb, it was in dethroning Dempsey. The better he makes Jack look the better he looks in turn, even if that means being self-effacing. Also, they turned out to be great friends. Really, I am not surprised this all goes over your head, but when you straight-faced cite Tunney's admiration for Dempsey's performance in Shelby, I'm gonna call you what you are: an idiot. Not as big an idiot as typically populate these parts, of course. But an idiot none the less.

All true but wills was number 1 in those rankings for the first two years. Wills had 30 odd fights from 19-26 and bar a dq was unbeaten. He was the top contender from 22-26 and not given his shot for whatever reason. Dempsey has a very weak title reign, lt heavys, guys hed beaten already and firpo. 5 defences in 6 years.

Dempsey was no bum, he was a great fighter but for me he does not have the resume of a lot of heavy champs. He may have beaten wills, i doubt it.

Wills could barely handle an old Langford.

Wills fumbled through a deflated version of Firpo. The raging white-hot version of Firpo had only lasted 2 rounds against Dempsey.

Wills got busted up something terrible by Sharkey, whom Jack almost completely ruined.

Watch Wills... he's clearly not fit to carry Willard's jockstrap. And we all know how things went in Toldeo.

Very few in the know gave Wills a real chance in reality to beat Dempsey. Ray Arcel the greatest of boxing trainers who watched Dempsey from ringside starting in 1916 and worked with Wills trainer for years termed Wills a “Journeyman” in ability and stated he was not very fast. Those big slow moving opponents were Dempseys meat. Dempsey was incredibly quick and had terrific power. Jack Sharkey stated the following regarding Dempsey:

“I never knew anyone could hit that hard. He would come at you in a little ball and when he hit you on the shoulder he broke your shoulder. When he hit you to the body it felt as if his fist was coming out your back. When he hit your hip he dislocated your hip”

Arcel also said he'd KO Tyson in two rounds....

But yeah, wills gets ****d. It's ****** to act like he gives Dempsey any sort of resistance.

[QueensburyRules]

Surely everyone knowx dempsey ducked wills. He was the top contender for about 5 years and dempsey chose guys lower down the rankings to fight. Mostly lt heavys or guys hed beaten before.

- -There were no rankings when Dempsey whooped Willard.

Tex Rickard came out with the first Ring rankings, you know, the guy who offered Wills a title eliminator for the right to fight Dempsey who had to go to Hollywood to make his first serious $ because legal problems with Kearns.

What grade U in?

[travestyny]

Actually completely untrue. The well known history shows that those that controlled boxing did not want a mixed race heavyweight championship bout. This would include Rickard, Dempseys primary promoter and Kearns, Dempseys Manager. No black heavyweight fought a white heavyweight champion for the title, except Johnson, from the inception of the sport until 1937 for a reason and that reason had nothing to do with Dempsey.

You are helping to make my point.

Neither Rickard nor Kearns were involved with Dempsey breaking the contract in '26.

So take them out of the equation and what are you left with. What's the excuse now?

Dempsey claims there was no promoter willing.

However, there was a promoter that was willing to put this fight on. True or false?

[travestyny]

What does it matter? Wills was dog shyte. Sure, he was an upgrade from hacks like Langford and Johnson. But he was never fit to carry Willard's jockstrap.

Same question for you. What does your post matter?


We were discussing whether he ducked Wills, not whether YOU think Wills would have won.

Had Pacquiao and Mayweather not fought, both sides' fans can say what they like about who would have won. But I recall you yourself saying something like we wouldn't know who would win in their primes unless we could go back in time. So there you go.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Same question for you. What does your post matter?


We were discussing whether he ducked Wills, not whether YOU think Wills would have won.

Had Pacquiao and Mayweather not fought, both sides' fans can say what they like about who would have won. But I recall you yourself saying something like we wouldn't know who would win in their primes unless we could go back in time. So there you go.

Pretty sure, I also said that it favors Mayweather, but Pacquiao was clearly less of a threat when Floyd finally agreed to fight.

But you're not too bright, so I will state the obvious: May, Pac and JMM were the best P4P fighters of their era.

Dempsey was a great fighter, Wills was not.

This isn't comparing Mayweather-Pacquiao, this is comparing Mayweather-Morales. Who the **** cares if May and Morales didn't fight? Maybe it would've been entertaining to see PBF destroy Morales at 130, but it's not a big deal that it didn't happen.

Mexicans don't flood Boxing discussions talking about "racisms". Or burn down Wendy's restaurants.

[Willie Pep 229]

Of course Tex Rickard was involved in 1926. He was Dempsey's go to guy, and in the end delivered to Dempsey, in Philadelphia, the largest payday to date.

How does one conclude that Rickard wasn't involved in '26?

Hell, if Rickard wasn't involved Dempsey may have had no choice but to take the Chicago deal.