Jack Johnson v Wladimir Klitschko

[soul_survivor]

Hard to say man, the game has changed so much. I believe Wlad takes it, but only really due to the way the game has changed and developed so much as it has.

Thats a valid enough reason Paw, boxing has evolved so much since the early 20th century, most of the great fighters (not stomping on their achievements) couldn't hold a candle to most mid level guys in the modern game. Check old clips or the likes of Fitzsimmons, JJ and so on and its all hugging, pushing with limited defence.

Guys from 1930 on wards have a better claim against a lot of the best fighters from the 60s on wards as the sport had become more sophisticated by then.

[billeau2]

Thats a valid enough reason Paw, boxing has evolved so much since the early 20th century, most of the great fighters (not stomping on their achievements) couldn't hold a candle to most mid level guys in the modern game. Check old clips or the likes of Fitzsimmons, JJ and so on and its all hugging, pushing with limited defence.

Guys from 1930 on wards have a better claim against a lot of the best fighters from the 60s on wards as the sport had become more sophisticated by then.

I can't stop people from seeing things this way SS...But I want to try. Sumo is the only martial art that is entirely indiginious to Japan. When most peope see a Sumo match they see two fat guys grunt and heave a bit. To the trained eye however, in that few seconds of activity is an eternity. There are countless Slapping and grappling manuveurs. There is eleborate footwork, weight shifts, etc. many Japanese gamblers bet incredible sums in the Sumo matches, there is a whole set up....and the reason for this is because...to the trained eye all that shoving and pushing is a science and takes skill and training for a lifetime. I mention the ******** because would you bet good money in a random fat guy heaving? No, but I bet if I gave you odds that Khan would ko Mayweather you would take the bet because even though it may look like two guys dancing and juking to our wives....you and I know damn well what we would be looking at and why Mayweather is so good at what would appear to the untrained...as two guys assaulting each other with gloves.

Your concept of the old timers does not consider that if you were to square up the way guys fight then? you would get an arm grabbed and pounded all up and down. There are even reasons why a jab is not a good idea in MMA and it ties into why guys fought a certain way back then.

[Panthershock]

Very enlightening and informative thread. It's clear that Johnson is a master of a fighting technique that is no longer allowed. He is constantly putting people in holds that allow him to hit while also neutralizing the other fighters ability to do so
I don't have an MMA background so the first comparision I made was to fighting techniques in ice hockey. Obviously this is not anywhere near as advanced a discipline however the basic concept is very similar to a lot of what I saw JJ doing. You try to establish a favorable hold on your opponent where you are able to punch while the hold negates his ability to do so. If you make a mistake initially grabbing, the fights over before it starts. That is why you never throw a meaningful jab and you see them carefully paw at each other before grabbing

good example here 2 of the better fighters in the NHL today http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG91eo2qHUI#t=55
you can see how technique can nullify the size and strength advantage that Parros had

My opinion is that either Klitschko has no chance fighting Johnson in that era under those rules. Holding him wouldn't work because neither of them have the ability to grapple and hold and hit

Vice versa is also true, deny Johnson that grappling ability under todays rules and he doesnt have the skillset to win

[soul_survivor]

I can't stop people from seeing things this way SS...But I want to try. Sumo is the only martial art that is entirely indiginious to Japan. When most peope see a Sumo match they see two fat guys grunt and heave a bit. To the trained eye however, in that few seconds of activity is an eternity. There are countless Slapping and grappling manuveurs. There is eleborate footwork, weight shifts, etc. many Japanese gamblers bet incredible sums in the Sumo matches, there is a whole set up....and the reason for this is because...to the trained eye all that shoving and pushing is a science and takes skill and training for a lifetime. I mention the ******** because would you bet good money in a random fat guy heaving? No, but I bet if I gave you odds that Khan would ko Mayweather you would take the bet because even though it may look like two guys dancing and juking to our wives....you and I know damn well what we would be looking at and why Mayweather is so good at what would appear to the untrained...as two guys assaulting each other with gloves.

Your concept of the old timers does not consider that if you were to square up the way guys fight then? you would get an arm grabbed and pounded all up and down. There are even reasons why a jab is not a good idea in MMA and it ties into why guys fought a certain way back then.

Great analogy with the sumo and I've never said that JJ wasn't extremely skilled in what he did almost a century ago, fact is, Wlad is far more skilled in what he does now and if you transported JJ to the modern world f boxing, I reckon he'd get whooped.

Then again, transport Wlad back a century and what happens? I personally believe Wlad wins then too because if he spent a life time growing up with boxing in those days, he would know all the moves that JJ knew and his far superior height, reach and weight would be almost unbeatable advantages in an MMA type style of boxing match. Grappling is even more so biased towards bigger, stronger guys then straight up boxing, add to that Wlad's skill at jabbing, better than JJs, his right hand and his power...just can't see how JJ wins. Grapple, box, what ever, JJ gets beaten.

But I do agree that there was a slightly different skill set required in the early years of gloved boxing.

[Cinci Champ]

jack johnson was great and in his prime was one of the best ever but trying to figure out who of these 2 would win in a fight is impossible. does jack johnson get to have modern training and technique? is it a wlad from 1900? u have to give it to wlad if its 1900 johnson vs modern wlad but jack johnson is arguably the best heavy weight ever in his time and if he had modern day training or even couple decades later training i think he would of been better and would of been mentioned with sugar ray robinson as best ever. maybe im over stating the fact boxers from back then were not as good as fighters that came later technique wise but if you go back and watch the film i think you would agree film dont lie. it was same sport but fighters fought differently. johnson was just so fast it didnt matter

[billeau2]

Very enlightening and informative thread. It's clear that Johnson is a master of a fighting technique that is no longer allowed. He is constantly putting people in holds that allow him to hit while also neutralizing the other fighters ability to do so
I don't have an MMA background so the first comparision I made was to fighting techniques in ice hockey. Obviously this is not anywhere near as advanced a discipline however the basic concept is very similar to a lot of what I saw JJ doing. You try to establish a favorable hold on your opponent where you are able to punch while the hold negates his ability to do so. If you make a mistake initially grabbing, the fights over before it starts. That is why you never throw a meaningful jab and you see them carefully paw at each other before grabbing

good example here 2 of the better fighters in the NHL today http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG91eo2qHUI#t=55
you can see how technique can nullify the size and strength advantage that Parros had

My opinion is that either Klitschko has no chance fighting Johnson in that era under those rules. Holding him wouldn't work because neither of them have the ability to grapple and hold and hit

Vice versa is also true, deny Johnson that grappling ability under todays rules and he doesnt have the skillset to win

haha funny you should mention hockey fights. There was a flame war on a well known martial arts site and one of the participants was an MMA/Hockey player who claimed to teach hockey players how to punch. It strained credability at the time but it kind of makes sense actually.

[billeau2]

Great analogy with the sumo and I've never said that JJ wasn't extremely skilled in what he did almost a century ago, fact is, Wlad is far more skilled in what he does now and if you transported JJ to the modern world f boxing, I reckon he'd get whooped.

Then again, transport Wlad back a century and what happens? I personally believe Wlad wins then too because if he spent a life time growing up with boxing in those days, he would know all the moves that JJ knew and his far superior height, reach and weight would be almost unbeatable advantages in an MMA type style of boxing match. Grappling is even more so biased towards bigger, stronger guys then straight up boxing, add to that Wlad's skill at jabbing, better than JJs, his right hand and his power...just can't see how JJ wins. Grapple, box, what ever, JJ gets beaten.

But I do agree that there was a slightly different skill set required in the early years of gloved boxing.

It occurs to me that there is a lot of confusion about the scenerio. I am we are hypothetically talking about one guy fighting according to circumstances that existed for the other guy. There is no question in my mind that in a modern contest JJ would get beat...But we have to be careful what logic we apply to make this interesting! JJ was a ohysical marvel, he could have easily put in 30 pounds of muscle and learned from a trainer today....but that is not what we are discussing. Ditto for Vlad adjusting to things then.

[StarshipTrooper]

haha funny you should mention hockey fights. There was a flame war on a well known martial arts site and one of the participants was an MMA/Hockey player who claimed to teach hockey players how to punch. It strained credability at the time but it kind of makes sense actually.

The line brawl between Calgary and Vancouver last week was a better fight than Pascal vs Bute :chuckle9:

[StarshipTrooper]

jack johnson was great and in his prime was one of the best ever but trying to figure out who of these 2 would win in a fight is impossible. does jack johnson get to have modern training and technique? is it a wlad from 1900? u have to give it to wlad if its 1900 johnson vs modern wlad but jack johnson is arguably the best heavy weight ever in his time and if he had modern day training or even couple decades later training i think he would of been better and would of been mentioned with sugar ray robinson as best ever. maybe im over stating the fact boxers from back then were not as good as fighters that came later technique wise but if you go back and watch the film i think you would agree film dont lie. it was same sport but fighters fought differently. johnson was just so fast it didnt matter

Not so much "better" but more accurate to say "different". Boxing was a sport in transition during Johnson's day.....enough so that it could be considered a different sport from boxing as we know it. A lot of the skills and techniques that we consider part and parcel of boxing as we know it would have been useless in boxing back then, even to the point of hurting your chances of winning if you tried to use them. And the reverse is true as well: Skills and techniques that were absolutely necessary in Johnson's day would be useless today.

That's why the conditions that this kind of fantasy matchup is fought under is so important. It's makes a huge difference in the outcome.

[billeau2]

The line brawl between Calgary and Vancouver last week was a better fight than Pascal vs Bute :chuckle9:

Really? how good was it Poet....

Poet says: "It was so good the British Boxing Commission got carried away and tried to stop it!"