Jack Johnson v Wladimir Klitschko

[Suckmedry]

While I think Wlad would beat Johnson, I agree with alot of what Ray is saying about Wlad.

[billeau2]

He doesnt need the jab, he has one of the hardest straight right hands of all time.

Also all Jacks skill in the clinch is for nothing, since Wlad is so much bigger and stronger, not to mention reasonably skilled there too.

Jack got beat by some real nobodies. He also was one of the biggest guys in his era and relied on that too much that goes out the window when Wlad arrives.

Lastly if a big unskilled Jess Willard can dispatch of him in his prime, who was cannon fodder for guys like dempsey and max, then what do you think Wlad will do to him?

Heres a problem with Vlad's "straight right." I meant to post this yesterday but got tied up.... You have to realize that in Johnson's time boxing tactics were still tied to fencing. Guys squared off at what is called "sword length" and sword length is pretty universal....In Japanese swordwork it is around 3 feet (on average) and similar in Euro fencing...it is the length of one blade stroke.

So we have a guy 3 feet back...and then you have to look at the defensive position and you will realize that a staight right would be thrown at the shoulder or the wind. In Johnson's day the weight was back, the body at a slight angle with the shoulder protecting...there was no place to throw a straight right. One had to close the gap with a lead hand punch, usually straight with no twist and one had to usually transition to foward weight attack mode. While these positions were negotiated, guys were grappling, feinting, trying to move into position, etc.

Most guys either were very good grapplers or they had very good foot speed to close the gap....Johnson had both. Even though he lost to Willard he was old, at his worse and STILL lasted a very long time.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Heres a problem with Vlad's "straight right." I meant to post this yesterday but got tied up.... You have to realize that in Johnson's time boxing tactics were still tied to fencing. Guys squared off at what is called "sword length" and sword length is pretty universal....In Japanese swordwork it is around 3 feet (on average) and similar in Euro fencing...it is the length of one blade stroke.

So we have a guy 3 feet back...and then you have to look at the defensive position and you will realize that a staight right would be thrown at the shoulder or the wind. In Johnson's day the weight was back, the body at a slight angle with the shoulder protecting...there was no place to throw a straight right. One had to close the gap with a lead hand punch, usually straight with no twist and one had to usually transition to foward weight attack mode. While these positions were negotiated, guys were grappling, feinting, trying to move into position, etc.

Most guys either were very good grapplers or they had very good foot speed to close the gap....Johnson had both. Even though he lost to Willard he was old, at his worse and STILL lasted a very long time.

While I give u credit for your post. I think it is all bs... Johnson isn't going to
grapple wlad and win... Johnson would be there to be hit no doubt, and if wlad can hit u he can hurt u and finish you. And wlad is a great grappler himself.. I don't see anyway johnson wins this fight

[Poet682006]

While I give u credit for your post. I think it is all bs... Johnson isn't going to
grapple wlad and win... Johnson would be there to be hit no doubt, and if wlad can hit u he can hurt u and finish you. And wlad is a great grappler himself.. I don't see anyway johnson wins this fight

Except that Wlad isn't a grappler. He's a grab and hugger. No technique involved just grabs his opponent and holds on until the ref breaks them maybe leaning on them some to try and tire them out. Basically the same stuff Akinwande got DQed for against Lennox.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Except that Wlad isn't a grappler. He's a grab and hugger. No technique involved just grabs his opponent and holds on until the ref breaks them maybe leaning on them some to try and tire them out. Basically the same stuff Akinwande got DQed for against Lennox.

Lol,,, true enough,,

I just don't see johnson being able to grapple wlad to a decision.. Wald is much bigger and more skilled than the guys johnson was manhandling,,,
Under modern boxing rules johnson gets beat by wlad

[billeau2]

While I give u credit for your post. I think it is all bs... Johnson isn't going to
grapple wlad and win... Johnson would be there to be hit no doubt, and if wlad can hit u he can hurt u and finish you. And wlad is a great grappler himself.. I don't see anyway johnson wins this fight

Stewart, great man no doubt. All he did for Vlad was to teach him to cheat. He, Stewart exploited the fact that fighters today do not know how to fight inside, so he knew Vlad would get a way with this.

it is preposterous to assert Vlad is a good grappler. It flies against all evidence in all his fights. Why? because Vlad never fights inside, he grabs to stop an opponent from fighting and that is the extent of what he does.

Again, you seem to have some strong opinions lately....Your opinion in this case is not backed by any supporting information. I.e. why would Johnson, standing at an average distance of 3 feet with weight back, be there to be hit? Remember we have the Willard fight....Willard did beat the aged and fat Johnson, but Johnson still showed at his worse an ability to deal with size, strength comprable to the Klitschkos. Notice I did not say punching power because I do not know how hard Willard punched....nobody does. Too many differences making it impossible to compare a Klitschko punch with a Willard punch with smaller gloves, etc.

[billeau2]

Lol,,, true enough,,

I just don't see johnson being able to grapple wlad to a decision.. Wald is much bigger and more skilled than the guys johnson was manhandling,,,
Under modern boxing rules johnson gets beat by wlad

1) Willard is proof that Vlad was not bigger than at least one guy Johnson dealt with...we don't know the skill thats in a sense what we are debating.

2) Under modern rules I do believe Vlad would win. Johnson was not trainedto fight in a manner similar to how fighters fight today.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Stewart, great man no doubt. All he did for Vlad was to teach him to cheat. He, Stewart exploited the fact that fighters today do not know how to fight inside, so he knew Vlad would get a way with this.

it is preposterous to assert Vlad is a good grappler. It flies against all evidence in all his fights. Why? because Vlad never fights inside, he grabs to stop an opponent from fighting and that is the extent of what he does.

Again, you seem to have some strong opinions lately....Your opinion in this case is not backed by any supporting information. I.e. why would Johnson, standing at an average distance of 3 feet with weight back, be there to be hit? Remember we have the Willard fight....Willard did beat the aged and fat Johnson, but Johnson still showed at his worse an ability to deal with size, strength comprable to the Klitschkos. Notice I did not say punching power because I do not know how hard Willard punched....nobody does. Too many differences making it impossible to compare a Klitschko punch with a Willard punch with smaller gloves, etc.

I will agree to that,,, wlad isnt much on the inside except for being a hugger, but wlad is a damn good hugger.

I dont understand the 3 feet thing, you did a good job explaining it but im trying to imagine it in my mind with johnson and wlad, but all i can picture is wlad jabbing him and keeping him at bay, and when johnson gets inside, wlad smothers him and hugs him.. I just dont see how johnson would deal with the skill, size and power of wlad over 12 rounds, especially under modern rules

[billeau2]

I will agree to that,,, wlad isnt much on the inside except for being a hugger, but wlad is a damn good hugger.

I dont understand the 3 feet thing, you did a good job explaining it but im trying to imagine it in my mind with johnson and wlad, but all i can picture is wlad jabbing him and keeping him at bay, and when johnson gets inside, wlad smothers him and hugs him.. I just dont see how johnson would deal with the skill, size and power of wlad over 12 rounds, especially under modern rules

Well under modern rules I think Vlad takes it. Bigger gloves change a lot of stuff. If you took a glove from Johnson's time and a boxing glove of the various sizes used today you would notice that certain techniques cannot be used anymore. Chief among them is a straight lead. A jab is a type of straight lead where the hand has to be brought back but in Johnson's time this punch was done more by throwing the body weight foward, the hand was kept palm up with little or no twist....you could get a connection through a smaller glove with that punch where as with a larger glove you could not get that connection, hence the need to square up and create a jab where the arm moves quite a bit more. Look at a vid of a one inch punch to get an idea of how this punch looked.

The three foot rule explained: If you picked up a Japanese Katana and I picked one up the first thing that becomes abundently clear is that we are holding each a single edged three foot razorblade!! As an aside don't let anyone tell you a double edged sword is more deadly...Bollocks! At any rate we will quite naturally want to put some distance between us....If I decide that you being in Illinois I would rather be in kansas....a perfectly logical flight reflex...but hardly a way to initiate combat. Swordsmen generally want to be in a place where he is just out of range of a sudden cut. In other words I want to be a distance where if you just swing the sword I will be juuuuust out of range. This allows two things to happen;

1) I know that for you to cut me your whole body has to move, which I can see a lot easier than just your sword swinging.
2) at this range I can counter your attack, attack first, or defend against the attack.

Any fighting with blades had some variation of this rrule. The original boxing a la James Figg was based on fencing tactics. So guys were taught to be at a range and angle where one could react to the whole body of the person moving and not just the arm. Guys set up this way with the hands held low, the weight back so that a sudden punch would not suprise. A lot of the old ways involved deceptively moving the legs to make it appear one was a different distance and other ways to move into a person so that you could hit the person and the person could not hit you.

Johnson would line up and use his feet in such a way that it would be very hard to square up and catch him with a shot. Guys square up now because of the gloves primarily, but the game has been reduced to trying to land big punches using superior speed and strength.

[SthPaw]

Hard to say man, the game has changed so much. I believe Wlad takes it, but only really due to the way the game has changed and developed so much as it has.