Jack Johnson v Wladimir Klitschko

[billeau2]

Half of Wlads opponents would knock out Johnson though. He was too small to be competitive in this era.

This is a case-in-point of the chauvanism described in a previous post. An assumption of this nature ignores such facts as:

1. The Heavyweight division has always been an open division. meaning that theoretically size is of relative importance and not absolute like the other weight classes. Why? because traditionally men who have been on the smaller side have won championships.

its not like this is not understood, we have countless examples of this. A prime Example would be James Toney. Toney a fat middle weight who could box an earmasters ears off beat relatively big heavyweights like Peter and Rahmin. There have been small heavyweights throughout history as well.

So the idea that because of a difference in size alone Jack Johnson would lose a fight is ridiculous. It flies against proven data. Keep in mind that Johnson, in training for a grueling long fight came in at the weight he did for that reason. And again, we know from grappling versus punching in a controlled environment that it is preposterous to assume Vitali would just catch Johnson with a big punch. We see what happened to this myth. But...what is stopping Johnson, a man who was solid muscle from gaining weight? AND...while Johnson could gain pounds to beef up a bit Vitali could not lose weight.

So boxing goat has been an exemplory idiot as usual. I cannot thank him enough for showing the ignorance if those who like to assume things with no experience, in total disregard to data, etc.

This is not to say that there are valid opinions supporing a Vitali win. He could catch Johnson coming in because one weakness of that style is because it is so similar to fencing, fighters make a pretty clunky transition from defensive posture (head behind shoulder, at an angle, weight back, hands held ready at waist) to attack (running square at opponent, hands attacking with the foward hand).

[Boxing Goat]

Boxing GOAT, I think you are severely underrating JJ and billeau2 great work on the MMA/grappling break down but you are hinging everything on the clinching. Wlad I believe has a better and more powerful jab and hits harder with his right hand too.

The chin is a big question though, could JJ hit hard enough to trouble Wlad and could he even get close enough to initiate action on the inside?

I think you are seriously overrating a small century old fighter who won most of his significant bouts against middle weights and light heavyweights. He would be fodder for Wlad, and that's being generous.

[Boxing Goat]

First off dufus, this thread is about Wladimir and Johnson, not Vitali.
Secondly, there's a reason this was not about Vitali because there is absolutely nothing that would even remotely indicate that Vitali would not completely pulverize a guy like Johnson inside 6 rounds. A great big fighter will always beat a great little fighter. Period.

Both Klitschko's are twice the boxers that Johnson was.

100 years of sports is a big gap there buddy.

[Poet682006]

One of the biggest obstacles to looking at fighters clearly is how others have, in the past used prejudices instead of information to evaluate what would happen in a head to head contest. Burt Sugar among others is accused of having a prejudice towards the older fighters....Some guys it is the opposite prejudice.

One thing I look at is data from MMA because I have seen and worked with guys who are heavyweights. MMA, like boxing at that time is in its infancy. Of course there were more grappling manuveurs in boxing up until around the 40's and even then fighters retained any of those skills.

Here is the interesting thing: Fighters used those grappling manuveurs against bigger guys. Big guys were around back then contrary to people who think the Klitschkos are a modern evolutionary Zarathustra! Not all big guys were slow and ******! Valeri gave the example of Jeffries there were others. And, weight is not the only thing that makes size....and vice versa.

I got yelled at in another thread for using myself as an example but it is instructive here: If you saw me you would think I weighed about 220-250. I am big but not fat... I.e I keepvery physically active. If I walked in a ring I would look about 220-250 but I weigh about 275. In my case, when I took an XRay I was told my bones are really dense....my point is that a guy who weighs about 210 and is rangy would dwarf me by looks! There is more to size than weight!

On this same note. Guys in MMA who weigh about 240? some of them look positively small because of the way they train it. Other guys come in and look large and menacing, and weigh maybe 200-210. And some guys are very well built and weigh 200 barely. Size and weight for a heavyweight in MMA do not correlate to success. The ground neutralizes a lot of weight but there are other reasons.

I think this data helps us evaluate the advantage a big man who trains for 12 rounds would have, as well as the disadvantage, in a 15 round fight where one needed certain skills to survive the ring. IMO to say that Klitschko was super strong, and could punch once to end it does not hold up to historical data where boxers are typically unable to oppose the grapple with one big punch. Besides Vitali being particularly rangy and muscular does not really help him. His stamina is a known variable and it would be big problem for him. We know other big punchers like Dempsey could be dealt with, I believe Vitali could be dealt with as well. Johnson was a superb grappler. He didn't ever wait to grab when he was in trouble, he anticipated the possability and had an arm before it ever happened.

Finally Guys fought back then so the head was back in defensive position, or they were attacking. This was done because with small gloves a quick punch to the head would end it. This meant that to get a big punch off one had to sustain an attack or counter very quickly. Klitschko would not be able to simply grab and hold, he would be countered at that range and set up. If he tried to use his size it would look like he was dancing with Johnson because Johnson did not set his feet. His chance would be to catch Johnson coming in...and its a distinct possability. Considering his conditioning he would have to do it relatively quickly though.

In the early part of the 20th Century boxing technique was still transitioning from the London Ring Rules to the Queensbury rules. I think you'll find that bare knuckle boxing under the London rules have some striking similarity to modern MMA fighting (without the mat work). With your MMA knowledge you could easily become our resident expert on the bare knuckles era of boxing

[Poet682006]

First off dufus, this thread is about Wladimir and Johnson, not Vitali.
Secondly, there's a reason this was not about Vitali because there is absolutely nothing that would even remotely indicate that Vitali would not completely pulverize a guy like Johnson inside 6 rounds. A great big fighter will always beat a great little fighter. Period.

Both Klitschko's are twice the boxers that Johnson was.

100 years of sports is a big gap there buddy.

Here's a novel idea: Why don't you address his points instead of making gratuitous assertions? Gratuitous assertions that can be equally gratuitously denied.

[Boxing Goat]

Here's a novel idea: Why don't you address his points instead of making gratuitous assertions? Gratuitous assertions that can be equally gratuitously denied.

?????

Because the points were made off topic maybe?

Did you think of that?

You should both maybe read the title of the thread.

Oh, and I did adress his point when I said a great big man always beats a great little man.

[Daddy T]

can't have a thread mentioning a klitschko or floyd without the nuthuggers eventually arriving to ruin it

[GeneralZod]

Not sure. Johnson has to have purely amazing stamina for as long as he's went on to fight. It would probably be a snore fest though to be honest. It would look brutal but the mass clinch fest would be too much.

[Poet682006]

Oh, and I did adress his point when I said a great big man always beats a great little man.

^^^^^ Perfect example of a gratuitous assertion. One that didn't address any of the points he made. Oh, and one that can be equally gratuitously denied.

[billeau2]

In the early part of the 20th Century boxing technique was still transitioning from the London Ring Rules to the Queensbury rules. I think you'll find that bare knuckle boxing under the London rules have some striking similarity to modern MMA fighting (without the mat work). With your MMA knowledge you could easily become our resident expert on the bare knuckles era of boxing

That is absolutely true. Thanks I try.