Joe Frazier vs Prime Evander Holyfield

[Sugarj]

Evander is one of my top 3 all time favorites, but I'd give the nod to Joe here on a small advantage in hand speed. Joe would be one of the few guys who could take punishment as well as Evander. If Evander got on his toes and jabbed Joe all night and refused to engage on the inside, I could see him winning a decision. The problem is I can never remember Holyfield fighting this way.

And by the way, I don't think either could beat a prime Holmes

Joe doesn't have a handspeed advantage over prime 1990-1992 Holyfield. Prime Holyfield's handspeed is a different league to Frazier.

Holyfield's was only a minute shade slower than Patterson, Ali or Tyson. Frazier has never been thought of as possessing particularly fast hands.

I'd watch some of their fights if I were you and gauge for yourself......

[Scott9945]

Honestly though, power is close. A lot of Fraziers power was from repetition, Holyfield on the other hand is just straight up underrated in the ****ing department. Ask Foreman.

I agree, it's closer than most people would think.

[The Surgeon]

This is one i often think about, it might well be the best action fight possible to put together in the HW division.

People tend to think Evander beat up Tyson so he'd do the same to the similar sized Frazier who was also aggressive (totally different fighters though) but then they skim over the absolute Hell "Smokin" Bert Cooper gave him...

Both guys can crack (Evander is a way under rated puncher) and both guys are crazy tough with among the best engines the division has ever seen, we would be in for non stop action fellas!

I can see Holyfield trying to box to begin with but Evander was never an out and out cutie and Frazier brought such pressure.... within a couple of rounds Holyfield would realise boxing wouldnt be enough and Joe would drag him into a war (a winnable war), i like Frazier's inside game a bit better, his power a shade more and his heart a bit more too. Holyfield had the type of combinations that could really have rattled Joe and got him going but im going to say Frazier takes it over 12-15 on a close but clear UD in an absolute CLASSIC

[res]

I don't know about prime Holyfield beating prime Holmes.

Prime Holyfield met grandfather Holmes and had a tough night, certainly lost a few rounds too. If you'd imagine a 12 years younger Holmes in there with Holyfield, the result is a no brainer.

Yeah, I favor Holmes in that match up, I don't see what Holy's advantage would be here. He doesn't have extraordinary power, prime Holmes does have an extraordinary chin, and Holmes clearly beats him on the outside. Holmes isn't going to volunteer to brawl with Holyfeild too much.

As for Holy and Frazier, I favor Frazier. I agree with the assessment of Holy outboxing Frazier early on, but being pulled into a brawl as the fight wears on.

[bojangles1987]

This is one i often think about, it might well be the best action fight possible to put together in the HW division.

People tend to think Evander beat up Tyson so he'd do the same to the similar sized Frazier who was also aggressive (totally different fighters though) but then they skim over the absolute Hell "Smokin" Bert Cooper gave him...

Both guys can crack (Evander is a way under rated puncher) and both guys are crazy tough with among the best engines the division has ever seen, we would be in for non stop action fellas!

I can see Holyfield trying to box to begin with but Evander was never an out and out cutie and Frazier brought such pressure.... within a couple of rounds Holyfield would realise boxing wouldnt be enough and Joe would drag him into a war (a winnable war), i like Frazier's inside game a bit better, his power a shade more and his heart a bit more too. Holyfield had the type of combinations that could really have rattled Joe and got him going but im going to say Frazier takes it over 12-15 on a close but clear UD in an absolute CLASSIC

I know it was a far younger Holyfield and Qawi isn't the same as Joe Frazier, but I wonder how much it would resemble the first Holyfield-Qawi fight. Would Evander try that hard to box Frazier, or would he go to war right away? Would Frazier get to a worn down Holyfield like Qawi couldn't?

[them_apples]

Joe doesn't have a handspeed advantage over prime 1990-1992 Holyfield. Prime Holyfield's handspeed is a different league to Frazier.

Holyfield's was only a minute shade slower than Patterson, Ali or Tyson. Frazier has never been thought of as possessing particularly fast hands.

I'd watch some of their fights if I were you and gauge for yourself......

actually, In his prime I'd say Joe does. He wouldn't put combinations together like Evander, so depending on what you define as hand speed, he could be quicker.

Frazier would often only throw 1 or 2 shots in combination, but the velocity was quite fast. Very fast. Pretty much half the reason he gave Ali the work he did.

[Sugarj]

actually, In his prime I'd say Joe does. He wouldn't put combinations together like Evander, so depending on what you define as hand speed, he could be quicker.

Frazier would often only throw 1 or 2 shots in combination, but the velocity was quite fast. Very fast. Pretty much half the reason he gave Ali the work he did.

I'd have said this is a no brainer based on their respective fights.

Frazier was no slouch in the handspeed department, I'd never say that.......but in comparison to 1990-1992 Holyfield, whether single punches or combinations this is no contest to my eyes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Frazier fan and over 15 rounds I'd pick him to outpoint Holy. But did he have faster hands? No chance!

[DarkTerror88]

Frazier grinds him down to a stoppage or a UD if Evander holds on. I might go on later as i have a great picture in my mind as how this plays out.

Im kind of adopting Chicago as my home town now so i will borrow something from Derrick Rose, "Bigger, stronger faster and better than you!" i think Frazier's body work, superior tempo, and better stamina allow him to outwork and really beat up Holyfield in the later rounds.

[them_apples]

I'd have said this is a no brainer based on their respective fights.

Frazier was no slouch in the handspeed department, I'd never say that.......but in comparison to 1990-1992 Holyfield, whether single punches or combinations this is no contest to my eyes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Frazier fan and over 15 rounds I'd pick him to outpoint Holy. But did he have faster hands? No chance!

perhaps you are correct. I'll have to review. I do remember prime Holy having fast fuggin hands though. Frazier in Ali vs Frazier 1 was blazing however.

[Sugarj]

perhaps you are correct. I'll have to review. I do remember prime Holy having fast fuggin hands though. Frazier in Ali vs Frazier 1 was blazing however.

I'm pretty sure when the modern heavyweights were ranked in terms of handspeed Patterson was found to have the fastest left, Ali the fastest right and both Tyson and Holyfield were judged to be roughly equal. Don't quote me but I think it was touched on in Gerald Suster's book.

No mention was made of other notable guys with fast hands like Holmes, Louis or Weaver. Frazier wasn't included either. Strangely......I'd actually rank prime Joe Bugner as having really fast hands in the early 70s.

As for Ali vs Frazier 1. Frazier's left hook was so quick and ludicrously accurate. It was like a heat seeking missile that night....ha ha