Was James j jeffries one of the greatest?

[Bronson66]

- - Welcome to fight that dated quote.

After the Hart win, Jeffries announced there were no more compelling fights and he was retiring.

No matter, JJ had a miserable 1905 year with Hart and Jeannette whooping him...

Johnson had 13 fights in1905 losing 2 both of which were highly debateable.

[match maker]

Johnson had 13 fights in1905 losing 2 both of which were highly debateable.

Your back? Your good bye to the board did not last long.

Johnson has 23+ fight in 1901 who Ko'd him in 3 rounds.

1894 John Lee Galveston, Tx W 16
-Some sources report "KO 15"
Undated (circa 1894-95) Dave Pierson Galveston, Tx W

1895Apr 11 "Utah" Bob Thompson Galveston, Tx L 4 -Some sources report 1899
1896 Cherokee Kansas City, Ks KO Howard Pollar Galveston, Tx W 1897 Jim Rocks Galveston, Tx KO 4 Sam Smith Galveston, Tx W 101898 Reddy Bremer Galveston, Tx KO 3 Jim Cole Galveston, Tx W 4 Henry Smith Galveston, Tx D 151899Feb 11 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx D 7Mar 17 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx WF 7May 6 Klon***e (John Haines) Chicago, Il LT 5
-Reports vary - 5/05/99 - 5/08/99;
Some sources report "LT 6"Dec 16 Pat Smith Galveston, Tx D 121900Mar 7 John Lee Galveston, Tx W 15Mar 20 Willie McNeal Galveston, Tx KO 15Apr 6 Bob White Galveston, Tx W 15Apr 12 Charley Brooks Galveston, Tx KO 2May 1 Jim Scanlan Galveston, Tx KO 7May 6 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx KO 2May 28 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx KO 7Jun 12 Horace Miles Galveston, Tx KO 3Jun 25 Klon***e (John Haines) Galveston, Tx D 20 -Some sources report 6/28/00
Oct George Lawler Galveston, Tx KO 10Nov Josh Mills Memphis, Tn W 12Dec 27 Klon***e (John Haines) Memphis, Tn TK 14 -Some sources report 12/28/00
1901Feb 25 Joe Choynski Galveston, Tx LK 3 -Both fighters were arrested after the fight

[travestyny]

- - Martin down three times in the second round. "..Manager McCarey of the Century Athletic Club announced that he would offer a $15, 000 guarantee for a match between Jeffries and Johnson..."

Peanut$ suits you perfectly. Doesn't change JJ had a miserable 1905 when Jeffries retired to his alfalfa farm to blow up to 350lb.

And so where was the $$$ for the fight then compared to 6 years later?

• The purse was $101,000. Originally, the winner was to get 75% and the loser 25%. Five days before the fight, Johnson proposed changing it to an even 50/50 split. Jeffries suggested a 60/40 split, which Johnson accepted. Each fighter was given a $10,000 signing bonus. Jeffries was given $66,666 for movie rights and Johnson was given $50,000.
• Jeffries opened as a 10-7 favorite. Odds climbed as high as 2½-1 for Jeffries.
• The fight was to take place in San Francisco, until California's governor, James Gillett, stepped in with less than three weeks to go. Boxing was still banned in many states, and church groups had pressured him to stop it on moral and religious grounds. Promoter Tex Rickard acted swiftly and moved the bout to Reno, where prizefighting was legal and several east-west railroads met.
• There were rumors of a fix, and Nevada Governor Denver ****erson demanded an assurance from Rickard that the fight be fair, not fixed.

They actually collectively cleared $200,000 with JJ as the winner just over $100K and Jeff just under $100K.

The movie rights were minimal because Many Local Legislators outlawed this fight to prevent future riots.

To Wit:

Two weeks after the match former President Theodore Roosevelt, an avid boxer and fan, wrote an article for The Outlook in which he supported banning not just moving pictures of boxing matches, but a complete ban on all U.S. prize fights. He cited the "crookedness" and gambIling that surrounded such contests and that moving pictures have "introduced a new method of money getting and of demoralization".^[33] The controversy surrounding the film directly^[10] motivated Congress to ban distribution of all prize-fight films across state lines in 1912; the ban was lifted in 1940.^[33]

How does this change that he clearly drew the colorline when he was champion....????

Why did Jeffries fight Munroe instead of Johnson or McVea? He certainly was offered more to fight McVea and you stated it was all about the money.

We both know you have no answer. Let it go.

[solidman]

Johnson was robbed against Hart

[Bronson66]

Johnson was robbed against Hart

That would be my interpretation of the fight.

George Siler the premier referee of the day called the verdict,"an exceedingly strange decision. "

Greggains was not only the referee ,he was the promoter,and as such I think had a vested interest in voting for the White fighter whose aggressive style was more fan friendly than the laid back Johnson's.
Greggains never said Hart was the better man,he said he gave him the nod because he fought a more aggressive fight,aggression is fine but it must be effective aggression to earn points,otherwise the likes of Floyd Mayweather would certainly not have a clean sheet today!

[Bronson66]

Your back? Your good bye to the board did not last long.

Johnson has 23+ fight in 1901 who Ko'd him in 3 rounds.

1894 John Lee Galveston, Tx W 16
-Some sources report "KO 15"
Undated (circa 1894-95) Dave Pierson Galveston, Tx W

1895Apr 11 "Utah" Bob Thompson Galveston, Tx L 4 -Some sources report 1899
1896 Cherokee Kansas City, Ks KO Howard Pollar Galveston, Tx W 1897 Jim Rocks Galveston, Tx KO 4 Sam Smith Galveston, Tx W 101898 Reddy Bremer Galveston, Tx KO 3 Jim Cole Galveston, Tx W 4 Henry Smith Galveston, Tx D 151899Feb 11 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx D 7Mar 17 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx WF 7May 6 Klon***e (John Haines) Chicago, Il LT 5
-Reports vary - 5/05/99 - 5/08/99;
Some sources report "LT 6"Dec 16 Pat Smith Galveston, Tx D 121900Mar 7 John Lee Galveston, Tx W 15Mar 20 Willie McNeal Galveston, Tx KO 15Apr 6 Bob White Galveston, Tx W 15Apr 12 Charley Brooks Galveston, Tx KO 2May 1 Jim Scanlan Galveston, Tx KO 7May 6 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx KO 2May 28 Jim McCormick Galveston, Tx KO 7Jun 12 Horace Miles Galveston, Tx KO 3Jun 25 Klon***e (John Haines) Galveston, Tx D 20 -Some sources report 6/28/00
Oct George Lawler Galveston, Tx KO 10Nov Josh Mills Memphis, Tn W 12Dec 27 Klon***e (John Haines) Memphis, Tn TK 14 -Some sources report 12/28/00
1901Feb 25 Joe Choynski Galveston, Tx LK 3 -Both fighters were arrested after the fight

Dr Z. My post referred to1905 , which was clearly stated.Your banishment did not last long.

You have another opportunity here as an Alt ,I suggest you take it.

[QueensburyRules]

Jeffries would have earned more from fighting either Johnson or McVey then he received for fighting Munroe. both Johnson and Jeffreis received a third each of the film rights which was a very considerable amount of money,there was no talk of films of the fight being banned before the fight.

- - No he wouldn't, nor did he want to upset the applecart of Heavyweight history. Nor does the timeline show Johnson appreciably better than Munroe who was a hugely better physical specimen.

[Willie Pep 229]

OK, so Jeffries was a racist or a puppet of segregation, whichever floats your boat, but this has to be the 12th time we have had to suffer this thread in the two years I have been on this site.

Is this to be a bi-monthly tradition where we drag out the same arguments and the same sources and make the same points every two months?

In two years not a single new source has appeared, nor have I heard a new argument made.

So what's the point, are we just periodically feeding someone's racist needs, left or right?

Redundancy is the religion being preached here and it is really getting boring.

[Bronson66]

- - No he wouldn't, nor did he want to upset the applecart of Heavyweight history. Nor does the timeline show Johnson appreciably better than Munroe who was a hugely better physical specimen.

Johnson was not appreciably better than Munroe? That is your stated opinion?
Here is the report of their fight.
According to the Philadelphia Record, it was plain Munroe had not really trained for this fight as he appeared flabby and pale, and had not learned anything since the loss to Jim Jeffries. As the ex-miner offered no real threat to Johnson, the Galveston heavyweight merely boxed with him from the third round on, making no serious attempt to put Munroe away but beating him badly.

"...Jack Johnson, the California colored heavyweight, made a veritable punching bag of Jack Munroe, the Butte Miner, at the National Athletic Club last night..."

Munroe on the left v Jeffries.It was remarked most of Munroe's weight was below the waist
image.png

[Bronson66]

OK, so Jeffries was a racist or a puppet of segregation, whichever floats your boat, but this has to be the 12th time we have had to suffer this thread in the two years I have been on this site.

Is this to be a bi-monthly tradition where we drag out the same arguments and the same sources and make the same points every two months?

In two years not a single new source has appeared, nor have I heard a new argument made.

So what's the point, are we just periodically feeding someone's racist needs, left or right?

Because, redundancy is the true religion being preached here and it is really getting boring.

With the possible exception of one poster I don't think the posts are racially motivated.
Maybe I'm being dumb but ,with that one possible exception ,what strikes you as being racially prejudicial here?

Jeffries racial opinions were no different to the majority of Whites of his time,I doubt he was as virulent a racist as Corbett and I doubt Jeffries gave a **** what the public thought of him,he seemed indifferent to both the media and public's perception of him.
Possibly the reason old subjects are revisited is posters come and go.TBH I didn't even look who made this thread?
Jeffries standing as champion and his circle of fans ,is like so many others whose admirers are dwindling because of,"natural wastage",and newer idols coming on the scene every year.
Two of my own, all time top ten heavyweights have been deposed by the arrival of Tyson and Holyfield
For my part ,Jeff was an uncompromising,rugged, tough as old boots,man's man, whose whole self identity was wrapped up in his personal perception of his physical prowess.Gruff and taciturn I doubt there was a phony bone in his whole body.