The great HW men who wouldn't quit.

[Bronson66]

First off, what does it matter who i am on another forum? Second, if you would like me to post every comment you made and the responses let's make a ban bet. Fair enough? All anyone has to do is Google " did Jack johnson quit against Klon***e Haynes" and the first thing that come up is that thread from ESB (Boxing 24). Now you're claiming a fixed fight? You really like to reach when besmirching a fighter, don't you? And no I'm not saying one author or the other lied. I'm saying both books were written MANY years after the fact and neither used first hand accounts that ANYONE is able to see. Not you, not anyone. My guess is Roberts heard a story and ran with it without checking it out, and Ward just copied that if said at all. Because the fact is the newspaper reports don't line up with Johnson quitting, but rather the police (which you have already admitted) stopping it.

By the way, any forum I've ever posted on I've always used the same name. Now either make the bet, show a first hand account or STFU. As usual you have nothing. Tell us again how Tyson was ahead on the scorecards against Botha. You can even post the scores again ya big dummy!!

From that thread on ESB.

I will have details in my upcoming book, In the Ring With Jack Johnson, but can confirm that Johnson did not quit. He was tired, hurt, and grabbing a lot, and the bout was stopped, but not at his request, but rather because the police thought he had enough, and told the referee stop it, which the referee did (refs were compelled to follow police orders). Sort of like Holmes-Bobick in the amateurs - Holmes was getting nailed hard and pressured a great deal, so he grabbed a lot and got dq'd, but probably would have lasted the full 3 rounds had he not been dq'd for holding. Given what we now know about Johnson's ability to grab and survive, I think it likely that he would have lasted the full 6 rounds and lost a decision had the police not interfered. Adam Pollack.

This goes to the weakness of Unforgivable Blackness, which is its failure to use or adequately cite local next day primary sources. What is Ward's source for that information?
It is only the quality of sources that adequately support a writer's assertions. His only citation for that fight is the Chicago Tribune, and it does not support his description of the bout.

I, on the other hand, will be using and citing several local Chicago next-day sources, including the local Daily Inter Ocean, Chicago Chronicle, and Chicago Times-Herald. The next-day Chicago Tribune didn't actually say much about the bout.

apollack, Jul 21, 2012Report

Janitor of ESB on Unforgivable Blackness.

1. The book itself has to be taken as a secondary source.
   The most that the author can do is trawl through the primary sources, and try to work out what happened. You can circumvent the book by going straight to the primary sources yourself. Then if your primary sources are better than Wards, then you take them as a more direct resource than the book.
   
   If other people are putting forth primary sources to support an opposing opinion, then the only possible value that the book could have would be to direct you to another primary source. If it does not do that, then there is little value in pursuing it further.July 21st 2012.

Know when you're beaten Mendoza. McGrain July25th 2012

It's interesting that you insist that drawing concrete conclusions is difficult because primnary sources cannot be trusted but still manage to draw a concrete conclusion in direct contradiction to the world's foremost scholar on the matter. Where I come from we have a phrase for such an individual.

"****ing idiot."

McGrain, Jul 26, 2012

Even if I produced multiple primary sources, you just dismiss them. I produced about a half dozen regarding Johnson-Johnson and the rest of the board chimed in with even more, you dismissed every single one of them because it suits you. You are ridiculous.

McGrainJuly27th 2012.





Once again Z has diverted a good a thread into a Jack Johnson hate fest,without any evidence,proof, or primary sources to back up any of his BS.

[Bronson66]

Each of these men were told (or knew themseleves) that it was over; that their title (or atleast the fight itself) was lost, but still refused to stay on their stools.

John L. Sullivan (vs. Corbett)
Jack Johnson (vs. Willard)
Gene Tunney (vs. Greb 1)
Jack Dempsey (vs.Tunney 1)
Primo Carnera (vs. Baer)
James J. Braddock (vs. Louis)
Joe Louis (vs. Rocky Marciano)

To those who say the men of the past were not toughter than the men today. Show me who these men are.

Tyson?
Liston?
V. Klitschko?

Once these men knew defeat was inevitable they found a way to quit.

I am willing to learn.

P.S. Please don't waste my time telling me Klitschko was leading on the cards. A fighter knows when he is about to be beaten, that's when the injuries always seem to suddenly appear.

P.S.S. I did not include Ali (vs. Berbick) or Frazier (vs. Ali 3). Because both those men were physically restrained from fighting by their seconds. I have no doubt both would have continued.

How great these men were in heavyweight fights is up to the reader to determine,what is certain is they continued when they knew their cause was lost
Johnson v Willard
Braddock v Louis
Louis v Marciano
Moore v Marciano
Briggs v Vitali
Wilder v Fury
Ali v Holmes

[Dr Z]

Bronson66

From that thread on ESB.[INDENT]I will have details in my upcoming book, In the Ring With Jack Johnson, but can confirm that Johnson did not quit. He was tired, hurt, and grabbing a lot, and the bout was stopped, but not at his request, but rather because the police thought he had enough, and told the referee stop it, which the referee did (refs were compelled to follow police orders). Sort of like Holmes-Bobick in the amateurs - Holmes was getting nailed hard and pressured a great deal, so he grabbed a lot and got dq'd, but probably would have lasted the full 3 rounds had he not been dq'd for holding. Given what we now know about Johnson's ability to grab and survive, I think it likely that he would have lasted the full 6 rounds and lost a decision had the police not interfered. Adam Pollack.[INDENT]This goes to the weakness of Unforgivable Blackness, which is its failure to use or adequately cite local next day primary sources. What is Ward's source for that information?
It is only the quality of sources that adequately support a writer's assertions. His only citation for that fight is the Chicago Tribune, and it does not support his description of the bout.

Dude, Pollack uses sources and picks the one that suits his agenda the best. He under reports or omits anything negative on his subject material. That is part of the reason he is a fan boy.

He showed me his four sources for this part of the book. They different greatly from each other. I told him via DM how you come to that conclusion where your sources say different things and describe his appearance differently!
One of his " primary sources " describes Johnson as a 6'3" big man if my memory serves. Point being primary sources can have errors in them.


Johnson quit , two authors who researched the matter came to that conclusion from their sources which are listed in thier books.

That's all. END Email them if you want to know more of you unkown/


Read his book on Martin Hart's win over Johnson. He might contradict what he was in his book about Johnson.

Same subject, same man, different books. And a different read, see my point?

Likely not. You love a wife beating freemasons. Because you are one.

[JAB5239]

Dude, Pollack uses sources and picks the one that suits his agenda the best. He under reports or omits anything negative on his subject material. That is part of the reason he is a fan boy.

He showed me his four sources for this part of the book. They different greatly from each other. I told him via DM how you come to that conclusion where your sources say different things and describe his appearance differently!
One of his " primary sources " describes Johnson as a 6'3" big man if my memory serves. Point being primary sources can have errors in them.


Johnson quit , two authors who researched the matter came to that conclusion from their sources which are listed in thier books.

That's all. END Email them if you want to know more of you unkown/


Read his book on Martin Hart's win over Johnson. He might contradict what he was in his book about Johnson.

Same subject, same man, different books. And a different read, see my point?

Likely not. You love a wife beating freemasons. Because you are one.

You are so full of crap I can smell you thru my phone. You really sound like you think he's a faboy here, don't you?

Adam,
Thank you for posting what you have. I view you as a pragmatic and well informed poster. Unlike McVey you do not use double standard or selective parts of newspapers or prints to make your point without examining the other side of the coin. As I said before, sometimes primary sources vary! These reports offer false information and sometimes contradict each other. It will be tough to make a definitive conclusion here. -Mendoza (aka Dr.Z)

The fact is you want to believe 2 books with no primary sources against primary sources that directly negate your assertion.

Know when you're beaten Mendoza. -McGrain

Let me guess, Matt McGrain is also biased and a fanboy, right? Youve been told by two well known boxing historians that you're wrong, yet youwould rather believe two books with NO PRIMARY sources just to take a shot against the great Jack Johnson.

By the way, do we have a bet?

[Dr Z]

You are so full of crap I can smell you thru my phone. You really sound like you think he's a faboy here, don't you?

Adam,
Thank you for posting what you have. I view you as a pragmatic and well informed poster. Unlike McVey you do not use double standard or selective parts of newspapers or prints to make your point without examining the other side of the coin. As I said before, sometimes primary sources vary! These reports offer false information and sometimes contradict each other. It will be tough to make a definitive conclusion here. -Mendoza (aka Dr.Z)

The fact is you want to believe 2 books with no primary sources against primary sources that directly negate your assertion.

Know when you're beaten Mendoza. -McGrain

Let me guess, Matt McGrain is also biased and a fanboy, right? Youve been told by two well known boxing historians that you're wrong, yet youwould rather believe two books with NO PRIMARY sources just to take a shot against the great Jack Johnson.

By the way, do we have a bet?

You don't think Pollack is a fan boy?!




Quoting a post from 10+ years ago, when he was writing the book does not reflect his views after he wrote the book and became a fanboy of his subject material.

ALSO Matt McGrain is no historian! What book did he write? He is not well known either.


Press on any if you really want to discuss this matter further , I suggest you email Ward and Roberts. They may reply and they can defend their views o n Johnson quitting better than i can since they wrote it.

Got that, Cowboy

Bye

[JAB5239]

You don't think Pollack is a fan boy?!




Quoting a post from 10+ years ago, when he was writing the book does not reflect his views after he wrote the book and became a fanboy of his subject material.

ALSO Matt McGrain is no historian! What book did he write? He is not well known either.


Press on any if you really want to discuss this matter further , I suggest you email Ward and Roberts. They may reply and they can defend their views o n Johnson quitting better than i can since they wrote it.

Got that, Cowboy

Bye

Ok, so you say Pollack became a "fanboy" after he wrote the book. He was objective when writing it though and meticulously well researched using primary sources his book. What are the primary sources to Johnson quitting against Haynes in Papa Jack and Unforgivable blackness? That right, you don't know! You ignore primary so you can roll on with your agenda against Johnson. BRILLIANT!!!! And this is why you hold no value as a poster here nor ESB.

Sure, McGrain is not a historian because he didn't write a book...lmao!! His knowledge and contributions are very well respected in boxing history circles. You sound bitter because he banned you from ESB because of your outrageous lies, accusations and inability to provide a primary source.

Why would i need to email Ward? He never says Johnson quit in his book.

So, does this mean no bet?

[Bronson66]

Dude, Pollack uses sources and picks the one that suits his agenda the best. He under reports or omits anything negative on his subject material. That is part of the reason he is a fan boy.

He showed me his four sources for this part of the book. They different greatly from each other. I told him via DM how you come to that conclusion where your sources say different things and describe his appearance differently!
One of his " primary sources " describes Johnson as a 6'3" big man if my memory serves. Point being primary sources can have errors in them.


Johnson quit , two authors who researched the matter came to that conclusion from their sources which are listed in thier books.

That's all. END Email them if you want to know more of you unkown/


Read his book on Martin Hart's win over Johnson. He might contradict what he was in his book about Johnson.

Same subject, same man, different books. And a different read, see my point?

Likely not. You love a wife beating freemasons. Because you are one.

Lets answer you accusations one by one
1".Dude, Pollack uses sources and picks the one that suits his agenda the best. He under reports or omits anything negative on his subject material."
A.You haven't read any of Pollack's books you admitted that to me.So how do you know if he "under reports ,"a new Z word? Or omits anything?

2."He showed me his four sources for this part of the book. They different greatly from each other."

A.I have the book ,the sources do not differ about the fight at all . Pollack cites The Daily Inter Ocean,The Chicago Record/Herald, The Chicago Chronicle,The Chicago Times,and The Chicago Tribune.All of them broadly agree on the fight and NONE OF THEM SAY JOHNSON QUIT!

There is no news paper report in either Unforgivable Blackness or Papa Jack that says Johnson quit.I know because I have both books.
You are lying through your teeth when you say there is,something you constanty do.

Why would we need to contact Ward or Roberts? When their respective books do not say Johnson quit?

The one who needs to produce evidence to support his case is YOU! YOU HAVENT AND YOU WONT!

Where can I buy a book about Martin Hart?

I'm now a Wife Beater?

What is this obsession with the Free Masons?

Nobody but you ever mentions them.

You who can barely read and write ,who cannot formulate a sentence without spelling and grammar mistakes ,are holding court on books you haven't read,dismissing primary sources in them because they directly contradict your hate agenda ,all the while producing no primary sources of your own!

McGrain had you pegged from the start,as his statement when he banned you for life." I bitterly regret allowing that fool back on here,it will never happen again ,"proves!

Here is a little about Matt.
www.boxing247.com › weblog › archivesWelcome To Hell: Stanley Ketchel In 1908 ... - Boxing ArchivesMay 21, 2011 · By Matt McGrain:
Members – Transnational Boxing Rankings Board


Matt McGrain, a boxing historian, analyst, and lifelong student of the sport, is a writer for East Side Boxing, Boxing.com, and The Sweet Science. McGrain lives in the Highlands of Scotland.

tss.ib.tv › boxing › featured-boxing-articles-boxingThe 50 Greatest Welterweights of All-Time Part Five: 10-1

• Author: Matt Mcgrain

Matt McGrain


Published
9 years ago on

April 16, 2016
By
The Sweet Science
“Scotland based correspondent Matt McGrain, a lifetime boxing fan, has been covering the sport for various sites for more than a decade.

As interested in the history of the sport as he is in the current scene, Matt’s favourite fighters include Charley Burley, Israel Vazquez and Roman Gonzalez, who he predicted would one day scale the p4p heights when he was still fighting at 105lbs.

Sad to see Floyd Mayweather go, and expecting to see Manny Pacquiao close behind, Matt is happy to be covering the fights for The Sweet Science at a time when a new generation of stars is emerging.”

1. tss.ib.tv › writers2 › 21987-matt-mcgrainMatt McGrain | Boxing News, articles, videos, rankings and ...
   
   
   Apr 16, 2016 · In 2005, he was honored by the Boxing Writers Association of America, which bestowed the Nat Fleischer Award for career excellence in boxing journalism upon him. He was the first Internet writer ever to receive the honor.
   • Author: The Sweet Science

NB Hank Kaplan and Jack Fiske never wrote books,both are considered top historians.


You get more ridiculous with every post!

[Dr Z]

Bronson66

Name a fight in which the police entered the ring because a fight was fixed?

I did not say Kloi***e vs. Johsnon was FIXED. I can name many fights where the police entered the ring. Johnson's fight with shimpy 5'7" 168 pound Burns is just one of many examples.

[Dr Z]

JAB5239 ,

McGrian is a " well known boxing historian ", you say?!

This could be the wildest claim you have made! No boxing historian rates Brittish Mickey Walker in the top 40 heavyweights of all time, but he did! This tell serious boxing scirbes / histrians he does not know what he is taliking about.

I post where I wish.

As stated Papa Jack and Unforgivable Blackess write Johnson quit. Deal with it.

I told you to contact the writers, but I can see you don't seem to listen very well.

Now you can press on quouting me and others form ESB posts that are 10+ years old.

[Bronson66]

I did not say Kloi***e vs. Johsnon was FIXED. I can name many fights where the police entered the ring. Johnson's fight with shimpy 5'7" 168 pound Burns is just one of many examples.

I never suggested you did. I asked you in which fights did the police enter the ring because a fight was fixed?

Which is what you stated.
Here it is!

Complete with grammar mistake.lol
"The police entered the ring, they did so on many fixed fights"

You don't even know what you have posted do you! lol

I ask you again to produce one?

The police did not enter the fight between Burns and Johnson because the fight was fixed,they did so because Burns was getting the S*** beat out of him!

Still no primary sourced newspapers that say Johnson quit.
Still no reply to Jab's and my posts.