The great HW men who wouldn't quit.

[Dr Z]

You've been down this road before and proven wrong.

"One thing I learned early on is that analysis of sources is very important. You don't always get the full story from one source. A secondary source is only as good as the primary sources it uses. Hence my emphasis on several local primary sources, ie the next day account written by a reporter who actually saw the bout. More than one source is often needed to obtain a more full and complete understanding of what took place, because you have different perspectives, different recall, different level of care or concern or reporting about what took place. Also, we all know that memory fades and gets altered with time, which is why I do not care as much for much later accounts.

Ward discusses the Klon***e-Johnson fight on page 28. His only primary source citation to the bout is the Chicago Tribune, May 6, 1899. Actually the Tribune report came out on May 7, not May 6. The bout took place the night before, on May 6. Hence the next day report. But he does quote the Tribune's May 7 report, which is quite limited.

The Chicago Tribune said the local Chicago boxer, Klon***e, defeated Jack Johnson of Springfield, Illinois in the heavyweight class, but it did not say what the specific result was or even how many rounds the bout lasted. “Johnson, a long rangy colored man from Springfield, looking something like Fitzsimmons in black, showed up well at the start, but weakened under the steady but ponderous attack of Klon***e.” THAT IS ALL IT SAID!

Hence, there is no primary source support or citation in Ward for the assertions about the bout.

Therefore, we must look to other local newspapers from the time in the hopes that one of them gave a more complete account of the bout. That is what I do in my upcoming book, In the Ring With Jack Johnson, set to be released in 2013." -Adam Pollack

"Just to settle the argument, I'll post the primary sources here, but I don't want to do this over and over again until the book comes out. But this is just a taste of the type of information my upcoming book will contain, and why it will be a valuable addition to boxing history - to clear up the misinformation and lack of complete knowledge about Johnson's career. Bottom line is I believe what the reporters who saw the bout wrote the next day over something written many years later. Some of these are more complete than others, but if you read them all, in their totality, you can glean what happened.

This is what the local reporters wrote and printed the very next day in their newspapers. What is mentioned is that Johnson dropped Klon***e in the 2nd round, but then soon thereafter grew very fatigued and then held incessantly. Klon***e was in much better shape and consistently pounded away as the hurt and/or fatigued Johnson clinched to survive and stall. Eventually, in either the 5th or 6th round of a scheduled 6-round bout, depending on the source, at the request of the police, the referee stopped the bout.

The local Daily Inter Ocean said Klon***e won the fight in the 6th round, when Referee Hogan stopped the bout at the request of a police lieutenant who was close to the ropes.

"It was stopped more on account of Johnson holding on than because of any rough milling. Johnson is about 6 feet 2 or 3 inches, and has a punch in either hand that would fell an ox. He could not land it fair on Klon***e, although a punch in the head in the second round sent Klon***e to the floor. He arose immediately. After the third round Johnson tired rapidly and clung to his man at every opportunity."

The Chicago Chronicle said that “Klon***e” of Chicago was given the decision over Jack Johnson of Springfield, Illinois, before the end of the 6th round. “The bout between Klon***e and Jack Johnson of Springfield was not as exciting as it should have been. Johnson had the advantage in height and reach, but before the fight had progressed midway the sledgehammer blows of his equally dusky opponent made it plain that he was not trained for punishment.”

The Chicago Times-Herald said “John Johnson, the discovery of George Siler, proved to be a husky fighter of enormous height but of insufficient skill to win from ‘Klon***e,’ the latter getting the decision in the fifth round after lieutenant O’Connor had called it off on account of the clinching tactics of the loser.”

The Chicago Tribune said the local Chicago boxer, Klon***e, defeated Jack Johnson of Springfield, Illinois in the heavyweight class, but it did not say what the specific result was or even how many rounds the bout lasted. “Johnson, a long rangy colored man from Springfield, looking something like Fitzsimmons in black, showed up well at the start, but weakened under the steady but ponderous attack of Klon***e.” -Adam Pollack

Be careful of quoting Pollack. He is a fanboy of Johsonn and paints him with a glow. Did someone give you those quotes? Who?

Johnson quit. Two other books say so. Were any of these sources you quote at the fight?

[JAB5239]

Be careful of quoting Pollack. He is a fanboy of Johsonn and paints him with a glow. Did someone give you those quotes? Who?

Johnson quit. Two other books say so. Were any of these sources you quote at the fight?

All I needed to do was a quick search. Not hard really. Yes you may have two books, but as Adam stated one of the books primary sourse does not actually say he quit. He then provides several other newspaper accounts telling the real story. You like to play fast and loose with the "facts" as long as it suits your agenda. We've seen you do it when you claimed Tyson was beating Botha before stopping him, that Holmes was kicked out of Ali's camp for being to fast, and plenty of other things. You can say Pollack is a "fanboy" but he actually used primary sources of the fight.ill trust those accounts until proven wrong over the accounts of two books written nearly a century after the fact. Had we had nothing but the books I'd probably say he quit as well. But we have several first hand newspaper reports never saying he quit and the police stopped the fight.

[JAB5239]

"Summary: Excessive clinching to force a stoppage can be viewed as a form of quitting. Today this fight would be viewed as a TKO loss with tons of boos from the crowd. Imagine what Larry Merchant might say if he witnesses crap like this?! It seems clear that Johnson adapted this tactic because he could not take Klon***e’s blows . What is unclear is if this fight had anything to do with Johnson’s alleged Yellow streak. A man’s character in the ring is seldom tested when things go his way, but here under adversity, Johnson was. The results were telling. Since Siler “ Discovered “ Johnson in Battle Royal’s, it is fair to speculate he would make try to put a positive spin on this one, calming Johnson wasn’t well feed. This would be impossible to prove either way."


"In this case I now believe Johnson showed his dog side by not fighting back, and forcing the fight to be stopped. The promoter did not want to pay him a dime."


-Mendoza (aka Dr. Z)

"Yeah the police stopped it, was it to prevent further punishment?" -Mendoza (akaDr. Z)

"It is written that Johnson quit. Since the authors of Unforgivable Blackness, and Papa Jack do not post here, no one can say where they got the information that Johnson quit. Yet they wrote that." -Mendoza (aka Dr. Z)

The more I dig, the better it gets. If you admit the police stopped it you can't say Johnson quit. End of story!!

[Bronson66]

"Summary: Excessive clinching to force a stoppage can be viewed as a form of quitting. Today this fight would be viewed as a TKO loss with tons of boos from the crowd. Imagine what Larry Merchant might say if he witnesses crap like this?! It seems clear that Johnson adapted this tactic because he could not take Klon***e’s blows . What is unclear is if this fight had anything to do with Johnson’s alleged Yellow streak. A man’s character in the ring is seldom tested when things go his way, but here under adversity, Johnson was. The results were telling. Since Siler “ Discovered “ Johnson in Battle Royal’s, it is fair to speculate he would make try to put a positive spin on this one, calming Johnson wasn’t well feed. This would be impossible to prove either way."


"In this case I now believe Johnson showed his dog side by not fighting back, and forcing the fight to be stopped. The promoter did not want to pay him a dime."


-Mendoza (aka Dr. Z)

"Yeah the police stopped it, was it to prevent further punishment?" -Mendoza (akaDr. Z)

"It is written that Johnson quit. Since the authors of Unforgivable Blackness, and Papa Jack do not post here, no one can say where they got the information that Johnson quit. Yet they wrote that." -Mendoza (aka Dr. Z)

The more I dig, the better it gets. If you admit the police stopped it you can't say Johnson quit. End of story!!

"Regardless, contrary to the erroneous belief of some,Johnson was not dropped or knocked out,nor did he quit.
"Given what we later came to learn about Johnson's survival skills,it is likely he would have survived the full six rounds and lost the decision."

Jack Johnson The Rise,page 47 Chapter 3 Adam Pollack.
Could it be that Pollack isnt," a fan boy " of Johnson's ," but that Z is a hater of Johnson's? lol

[JAB5239]

"Regardless, contrary to the erroneous belief of some,Johnson was not dropped or knocked out,nor did he quit.
"Given what we later came to learn about Johnson's survival skills,it is likely he would have survived the full six rounds and lost the decision."

Jack Johnson The Rise,page 47 Chapter 3 Adam Pollack.

Maybe he would of, maybe not. No way to really predict that. But I agree about what we learned of his survival skills. Either way I can't see a case for him quitting.

[solidman]

Am I factually wrong - or do you just want to believe I'm wrong?

You don't think, we have had modern fighters, who didn't look for the exit, but were willing to go on despite being seriously injured, like the one-eyed Basilio? Really?? Have you ever heard of Denis Lebedev ór Eric Morales?

When did Hagler ever prove his toughness, by refusing to quit in a fight where he was severely punished, with little hope of winning? I can't remember that ever happening!

And Duran wasn't exactly showering himself with "toughness-glory" in that embarrassing "No Mas" affair, was he?

Yes, Gatti certainly fought to the best of his ability, every time he was in the ring. And so did the gutsy Spaniard Kiko Martinez of more recent times. As did Chisora (already mentioned). And how about Mahyar Monshipour - have you ever seen anyone try harder in a losing effort (against Somsak Sithchatchawal)?

So once again: There have always been tough and brave boxers - just as there have always been those less gifted in that regard. Obviously, no era can lay factual claim to having the most courageous fighters!

guys like haney, stevenson, hitching, davis are killing the game

[Bundana]

guys like haney, stevenson, hitching, davis are killing the game

Yes, these fighters don't always engage in wild entertaining slugfests (to say the least!). In fact, many times you feel that, as a paying costumer, you have been kind of cheated out of your money, by boxers who ought to have put in a bit more effort/enthusiasm.

Take someone like Haney (for example), who was heavily criticized after his last match, earlier this month. Now let's imagine, that we time-machine him and his opponent in that fight, Jose Carlos Ramirez, back to the roaring '20s, boxing's "Golden Age" - and have them fight an exact replica of their Times Square snooze-fest.

How would the boxing world back then have reacted, following such a fight? The obvious answer is of course, that there would have been no reaction or widespread criticism - because very few, outside of those who saw the fight in person, whould have heard about it!

Boxers are under much more scrutiny now, than back in the day, with whole cards being televised over much of the world - so the entire boxing fraternity can see what's going on, and weigh in with their comments/frustrations. Something they of course wouldn't have been able to pre-TV, and before forums like this.

I don't for one minute believe, that there are more boxers stinking the place out today, than in the old days. The boring old-timers simply didn't have the spot-light on them, as fighters have today!

[Bronson66]

Yes, these fighters don't always engage in wild entertaining slugfests (to say the least!). In fact, many times you feel that, as a paying costumer, you have been kind of cheated out of your money, by boxers who ought to have put in a bit more effort/enthusiasm.

Take someone like Haney (for example), who was heavily criticized after his last match, earlier this month. Now let's imagine, that we time-machine him and his opponent in that fight, Jose Carlos Ramirez, back to the roaring '20s, boxing's "Golden Age" - and have them fight an exact replica of their Times Square snooze-fest.

How would the boxing world back then have reacted, following such a fight? The obvious answer is of course, that there would have been no reaction or widespread criticism - because very few, outside of those who saw the fight in person, whould have heard about it!

Boxers are under much more scrutiny now, than back in the day, with whole cards being televised over much of the world - so the entire boxing fraternity can see what's going on, and weigh in with their comments/frustrations. Something they of course wouldn't have been able to pre-TV, and before forums like this.

I don't for one minute believe, that there are more boxers stinking the place out today, than in the old days. The boring old-timers simply didn't have the spot-light on them, as fighters have today!

Watching fights onTV,I find British fans more tolerant of passive fighters than US ones.

[Dr Z]

"Summary: Excessive clinching to force a stoppage can be viewed as a form of quitting. Today this fight would be viewed as a TKO loss with tons of boos from the crowd. Imagine what Larry Merchant might say if he witnesses crap like this?! It seems clear that Johnson adapted this tactic because he could not take Klon***e’s blows . What is unclear is if this fight had anything to do with Johnson’s alleged Yellow streak. A man’s character in the ring is seldom tested when things go his way, but here under adversity, Johnson was. The results were telling. Since Siler “ Discovered “ Johnson in Battle Royal’s, it is fair to speculate he would make try to put a positive spin on this one, calming Johnson wasn’t well feed. This would be impossible to prove either way."


"In this case I now believe Johnson showed his dog side by not fighting back, and forcing the fight to be stopped. The promoter did not want to pay him a dime."

Read Unforgivable Blackness. Ward the author is a real wordsmith. He says Jonhson quit like a dog. He was taking a beating and exited the fight by laying down under his own will. The police entered the ring when it was over.

Or read Papa Jack by Roberts, he says Johnson quit.


These are two books that tell the truth about their subject material.

This is enough for me. Pollack is a fanboy, but will give himself and out by reporting a few sentences about the other view, while salivating about this positive.

I hope our resident old, cranky, and hateful poster ( no name mentioned ) does not force yet another thread to be closed.

[JAB5239]

Read Unforgivable Blackness. Ward the author is a real wordsmith. He says Jonhson quit like a dog. He was taking a beating and exited the fight by laying down under his own will. The police entered the ring when it was over.

Or read Papa Jack by Roberts, he says Johnson quit.


These are two books that tell the truth about their subject material.

This is enough for me. Pollack is a fanboy, but will give himself and out by reporting a few sentences about the other view, while salivating about this positive.

I hope our resident old, cranky, and hateful poster ( no name mentioned ) does not force yet another thread to be closed.

You've already admitted the police stopped the fight. I posted that from your account from ESB before you were banned. Can't have it both ways. What primary sources did they use? Because we know the Chicago Tribune, Chicago times, Chicago Herald and The local Daily Inter ocean (primary sources) never mentions Johnson quitting. You can say what you want about Pollack, but he didn't write those accounts. So unless you can post a PRIMARY source that contradicts those given you're a one legged man in an ass kicking contest.