Why didn't Vitali - Sanders establish new lineage?

[Dr Z]

So you don't believe in the man who beat the man theory nor the top two fighters fighting to determine the lineal title. You believe it's ok for a fighter to skip over the next highest rated fighter, who in fact he already lost to, to fight a guy who had ONE top ten win in his entire career and that makes him lineal. Ok, got it.

But no, Vits was never the lineal champion.

Contenders for vacant lineal Championships In order to help identify the top contenders in each division, ratings from four different independent online publications are considered (see below).

- Bad Left Hook. Long running, online boxing publication. Bad Left Hook replace Boxing News’ position in our Policy now that Boxing News are utilising the TBRB’s ratings.

- The Ring. Throughout much of the gloved era The Ring Magazine has regularly published the most highly regarded ratings in professional boxing. Their up-to-date ratings are on their website.

- Transnational Boxing Rankings Board. In October 2012 the Transnational Boxing Rankings Board formed, and soon received praise for the balanced, impartial ratings consistently updated on its site.

- ESPN. American based, global television network.

As a minimum, two contenders for a vacant Lineal Championship must meet the following criteria:

Between them, the two boxers must hold at least two of the #1 positions, in the ratings.

Each boxer must be ranked in the top two in at least two of the ratings.

Sanders was not ranked in the Top 2 by the Ring. We know that for a FACT.

You quote Ring magzine first in this thread( incorrectly ) now you jump ship clinging to Bad left hook who has nowhere near the history of credibility of Ring Magazine? Trans Boxing rankings started in 2012 . Um, right. You might want to take note, this fight happened in 2004.


Have you checked the score of Botha vs. Tyson yet?? Botha was not winning as you ascertain. You can say bad again. Too many falsehoods to take you seriously.

[JAB5239]

You quote Ring magzine first in this thread( incorrectly ) now you jump ship clinging to Bad left hook who has nowhere near the history of credibility of Ring Magazine? Trans Boxing rankings started in 2012 . Um, right. You might want to take note, this fight happened in 2004.


Have you checked the score of Botha vs. Tyson yet?? Botha was not winning as you ascertain. You can say bad again. Too many falsehoods to take you seriously.

Not only have I checked the score of Tyson-Botha, I actually watched the fight. You should try it some time.

https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/Mi...Francois_Botha

You can't change the fact that you can't just skip over the next highest contender to make a lineal fight. Exceptions are made when the highest rated contender unwilling or a fight cannot be made. When did Byrd say he was unwilling, and when was an offer made that they couldn't come to an agreement? You have no answer for this because the FACT is Vits never wanted anything to do with Byrd after losing to him.

No falsehoods, all facts.

[billeau2]

You quote Ring magzine first in this thread( incorrectly ) now you jump ship clinging to Bad left hook who has nowhere near the history of credibility of Ring Magazine? Trans Boxing rankings started in 2012 . Um, right. You might want to take note, this fight happened in 2004.


Have you checked the score of Botha vs. Tyson yet?? Botha was not winning as you ascertain. You can say bad again. Too many falsehoods to take you seriously.

Pray tell: Site some excellent popular magazines, Zines, etc that you consider respectable. Guys like you never get it good doctor... Let me give you an analogy. I wrote articles for Black Belt Magazine, often considered the "Ring" of Martial Arts publications... And guess what? It is shiat. No better, no worse than the other such publications one could buy before internet history... Then you had the Asian Journal of Martial Arts... A magazine that adhered to an academic format, with guidelines for research, etc... and GUESS WHAT? For the most part? It was Shiat! Occasionally one could find a great piece, the rest was adhered to to look like an academic journal but the actual content? shiat!

You know what that leaves us? Posters that do their research and present cogent facts based primarily on history, which accounts for some of the posters here along with people like Marchegiano whom also writes Polemics on sacred cows... again having done his own research to derive his understanding. There are no higher authorities aside from history itself and those who have looked carefully at the history of the game.

So when you try to demean Jab, or anyone based on source materials and for getting a ranking mixed up (big deal) it is you who appear ridiculous to anyone who is even vaguely aware of the Existential base of truth in Boxing.

PS look at what some authors use as source materials if you do not believe me.

[JAB5239]

Here's a little question for Z. If the Ring champion is always the lineal champion, than why was Dariusz Michalszewski the lineal champion while Roy Jones was the ring champion? You like to make everything black and white when it suits your agenda, but there are always gray areas. Holding the Ring belt does not automatically make you lineal champion, and skipping over the top contender to fight a guy who caught lightning in a bottle doesn't either.

[JAB5239]

Botha was also IBF mandatory, was he not?

No, from what i found Botha wasn't rated by the IBF at that point but was #9 by the WBC. Not the greatest defense, but considering his last to opponents were top ranked by the Ring I'd say we could cut him a break for it.

Speaking of which.....Lewis beat Holyfield in '99, and Grant in early 2000, Yet the Ring doesn't show him as their champion until 2001. This is odd if all Ring champions are lineal championship because we can trace this lineage back easily enough to when Lewis beat Briggs, Briggs beat Foreman, Foreman over Moorer, Moorer over Holyfield etc. Even if you didn't want to follow that particular lineage, he beat the two top contenders, so why wasn't he recognized as not only lineal, but the Rings champion sooner?

[Marchegiano]

Pray tell: Site some excellent popular magazines, Zines, etc that you consider respectable. Guys like you never get it good doctor... Let me give you an analogy. I wrote articles for Black Belt Magazine, often considered the "Ring" of Martial Arts publications... And guess what? It is shiat. No better, no worse than the other such publications one could buy before internet history... Then you had the Asian Journal of Martial Arts... A magazine that adhered to an academic format, with guidelines for research, etc... and GUESS WHAT? For the most part? It was Shiat! Occasionally one could find a great piece, the rest was adhered to to look like an academic journal but the actual content? shiat!

You know what that leaves us? Posters that do their research and present cogent facts based primarily on history, which accounts for some of the posters here along with people like Marchegiano whom also writes Polemics on sacred cows... again having done his own research to derive his understanding. There are no higher authorities aside from history itself and those who have looked carefully at the history of the game.

So when you try to demean Jab, or anyone based on source materials and for getting a ranking mixed up (big deal) it is you who appear ridiculous to anyone who is even vaguely aware of the Existential base of truth in Boxing.

PS look at what some authors use as source materials if you do not believe me.

Whap

Damn, but Z's a tough old dog and he will recover.


Yeah man, I'm pretty tired of the whole bad source routine. It didn't used to be a major factor in our discussions for most the time I've been on BS. Maybe the last 5 - 6 years. Root of my attack on Nat, been having Nat thrown in my face while I get told I am not qualified. For about five years now.


There's a few users who immediately jump to your source is wrong but mine can do no wrong style stances. Z's not alone in it, and I confess I gave up on fighting it and joined in with my several threads that basically amount to Nat Fleischer wasn't even a historian. Even if you didn't get it, that's really what these recent color line threads are about. Bringing up rasslin', maybe going too hard on "lineal" when I really mean lineal as told by Nat, etc.


But, if this is the shot across the bow against this behavior, all for it. I'll stop my bull**** source attacking too. I don't tell my readers who was great and who wasn't why TF would I tell youse who is and isn't a solid source like as if that is not an opinion?



So, yeah Z here's a case in point but not exactly the only one. Maybe don't have ***** ass arguments over whose daddy can whoop who on a playground and just cite the source. Because I promise you this, does not matter who said what or who agrees with what, readers are going to read and form their own opinions and by being opinion tyrants all you do is make new comers nervous to speak. Try to dictate the ****ing means in which opinions are formed. What ****s.



I don't really have a problem with Ring, it is the new Ring thumping fanboys who pretend like the only source as valued as Ring is the books they happened to buy. Black Belt was ****, but even they had some good articles sometimes. I was speaking to a guy a while back about Bart Vale and how I had my view on him backwards. Vale was using Black Belt to promote his wrestling not using wrestling to try to weasel into a real fighting sport's rankings. The fact that he did speaks to his bravery and performance ability. He was a great pro wrestler actually.

We all know about the Dux stuff and Dante and what not, or at least I hope everyone does. But there was also MMA coverage and things like that. Just saying not even BB was only ninja stars.

[Coverdale]

No, from what i found Botha wasn't rated by the IBF at that point but was #9 by the WBC. Not the greatest defense, but considering his last to opponents were top ranked by the Ring I'd say we could cut him a break for it.

Speaking of which.....Lewis beat Holyfield in '99, and Grant in early 2000, Yet the Ring doesn't show him as their champion until 2001. This is odd if all Ring champions are lineal championship because we can trace this lineage back easily enough to when Lewis beat Briggs, Briggs beat Foreman, Foreman over Moorer, Moorer over Holyfield etc. Even if you didn't want to follow that particular lineage, he beat the two top contenders, so why wasn't he recognized as not only lineal, but the Rings champion sooner?

Because The Ring suspended their championship policy until sometime in 2001 with the April 2002 issue explaining their new championship policy.

Ring April 2002.jpg

[Willie Pep 229]

Because The Ring suspended their championship policy until sometime in 2001 with the April 2002 issue explaining their new championship policy.

Ring April 2002.jpg

Yeah I remember thst ******ity. You had to assume #1 was their championship choice.

[Dr Z]

You quote Ring magzine first in this thread( incorrectly ) now you jump ship clinging to Bad left hook who has nowhere near the history of credibility of Ring Magazine? Trans Boxing rankings started in 2012 . Um, right. You might want to take note, this fight happened in 2004.


Have you checked the score of Botha vs. Tyson yet?? Botha was not winning as you ascertain. You can say bad again. Too many falsehoods to take you seriously.

Not only have I checked the score of Tyson-Botha, I actually watched the fight. You should try it some time.

https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/Mi...Francois_Botha

You can't change the fact that you can't just skip over the next highest contender to make a lineal fight. Exceptions are made when the highest rated contender unwilling or a fight cannot be made. When did Byrd say he was unwilling, and when was an offer made that they couldn't come to an agreement? You have no answer for this because the FACT is Vits never wanted anything to do with Byrd after losing to him.

No falsehoods, all facts.

I did watch the fight live. It is laughable that you thought Botha was winning. No he wasn't and I posted the judges score cards.

You might want to admit more mistakes that I have pointed out and answer my questions with an answer, which is different from answering them with your own questions!


Since you failed to understand the timeline and are playing this duck game by answering questions with questions, I am finished with you in this thread.

END.


PS. Prove to me wth a link that Bryd seeked a Vitali re-match post 2,000. I see no evidence that he did.

[JAB5239]

You quote Ring magzine first in this thread( incorrectly ) now you jump ship clinging to Bad left hook who has nowhere near the history of credibility of Ring Magazine? Trans Boxing rankings started in 2012 . Um, right. You might want to take note, this fight happened in 2004.


Have you checked the score of Botha vs. Tyson yet?? Botha was not winning as you ascertain. You can say bad again. Too many falsehoods to take you seriously.






I did watch the fight live. It is laughable that you thought Botha was winning. No he wasn't and I posted the judges score cards.

You might want to admit more mistakes that I have pointed out and answer my questions with an answer, which is different from answering them with your own questions!


Since you failed to understand the timeline and are playing this duck game by answering questions with questions, I am finished with you in this thread.

END.

first off, why havent you answered my questions concerning the Ring and lineal? Second, you didnt watch the Tyson-Botha fight if you think Tyson was winning and you need to go back and learn how to read a score card.

PS. Prove to me wth a link that Bryd seeked a Vitali re-match post 2,000. I see no evidence that he did.

"The fight saw Botha ahead on all scorecards until Tyson connected with one tremendous right hand that finished the match. Tyson threw a right while Botha was moving forward right into Tyson's punch. Botha was badly hurt and failed to beat the count. Botha tried to get up twice but failed, Tyson assisted the referee in helping Botha get up when the bell had rung. After the fight, Tyson stated at the press conference that he felt rusty"