Why didn't Vitali - Sanders establish new lineage?

[Willie Pep 229]

Good question? Why no Vitali?

I pretty much lost enbracement of the fight game after the 2000s started so I can speak as a casual on this topic.

As a casual I don't remember a 'big fight' being held; I didn't see any consensus around me about the man.

Even though I was paying little attention I eventually realized that his brother's longevity as a belt holder had morphed into the lineal title.

He seemed to have earned the moniker as Holmes did in the 1980s.

The lineal title seems to appear if there is either a big fight brought together by some form of consensus (Frazier-Ellis) or there is a long lineage of successful title defenses. (Tommy Burns)

Vitali had neither going for him. His biggest fight, Lewis, he lost.

Maybe because brother Wald didn't have the stink of a Lewis loss on him, it made him easier to accept.

[Willow The Wisp]

Vitali and Sanders fought after Lennox Lewis' official retirement. Vitali was coming off a well contested loss to the outgoing champion and Sanders after chinning Vitali's brother in two. Seems recognising this as for the vacant world championship would have been reasonable, so why wasn't it?

Why the big mad rush to establish the deserved parties in re-establishing the line? There are no solid, always followed "rules" about this, like the WBA has (you'll note what I did there), but there is Precident (Such as what guides legal decisions).

We can declare a champion hastily, then allow the best to percolate up through attrition via wins & losses. This shouldn't take long if it's paced properly. (Leon, God bless him, was bound to lose that crown before too long, whether he rematched with Ali or not).

Or, we can try crowning the best to start with, by hosting a round robin; using wins and losses accrued during the prior 36 months attached to new pairings, conducted soon after the title becomes vacant.

The latter is Precident.

Well, imagine how awkward Thanksgiving would be at the Klitschko house if, 21 years ago in April 2004, Vitali were declared the real/lineal champion of combat sport off of his 8th round stoppage of Corrie "I'm not ****ing T-Rex" Sanders; and then he refused to grant Wladamir a title shot "because he is my brother", and would instead mark as the highlights of his reign his victories over Danny Williams, Sam Peter, Juan Carlos Gomez, Chris Arreola, Kingpin Johnson, Albert Sosnowski, a used up Shannon Briggs (strung out on the Just for Men beard die), Odlanier Solis, Tomaz Adamek, Derick Chisora and the Unsinkable Molly Charr (and getting chinned as a skinny teenager by Pele Reid). This, while Wladdy was dusting himself off after Lamon Bruster, his final career debacle; and embarking on a 22 fight roll that puts Vitali's whole career to shame, which saw Wladamir consolidate most of the belts and take the measure of all the best contenders (except his brother).

Holding off and waiting a bit proved a far better option.

[IronDanHamza]

But who is actually saying Pac Man - Bradley started a new lineage?

Isn't it a SB and the mediia?

Anyway you certainly don't think it did, and in the end you'll probably be remembered as correct.

That's the beauty of the lineal title. We decide not the SBs or even the media.

It's the general consensus.

I've had arguments about it on here Ad Nasuem.

It's also on Wikipedia But yeah that is pretty much the consensus in fact I think even TBRB has it as a new Lineage aswell.

[Bronson66]

Why the big mad rush to establish the deserved parties in re-establishing the line? There are no solid, always followed "rules" about this, like the WBA has (you'll note what I did there), but there is Precident (Such as what guides legal decisions).

We can declare a champion hastily, then allow the best to percolate up through attrition via wins & losses. This shouldn't take long if it's paced properly. (Leon, God bless him, was bound to lose that crown before too long, whether he rematched with Ali or not).

Or, we can try crowning the best to start with, by hosting a round robin; using wins and losses accrued during the prior 36 months attached to new pairings, conducted soon after the title becomes vacant.

The latter is Precident.

Well, imagine how awkward Thanksgiving would be at the Klitschko house if, 21 years ago in April 2004, Vitali were declared the real/lineal champion of combat sport off of his 8th round stoppage of Corrie "I'm not ****ing T-Rex" Sanders; and then he refused to grant Wladamir a title shot "because he is my brother", and would instead mark as the highlights of his reign his victories over Danny Williams, Sam Peter, Juan Carlos Gomez, Chris Arreola, Kingpin Johnson, Albert Sosnowski, a used up Shannon Briggs (strung out on the Just for Men beard die), Odlanier Solis, Tomaz Adamek, Derick Chisora and the Unsinkable Molly Charr (and getting chinned as a skinny teenager by Pele Reid). This, while Wladdy was dusting himself off after Lamon Bruster, his final career debacle; and embarking on a 22 fight roll that puts Vitali's whole career to shame, which saw Wladamir consolidate most of the belts and take the measure of all the best contenders (except his brother).

Holding off and waiting a bit proved a far better option.

Good post!

[Dr Z]

Couldn't put it all together. Was stopped every time he stepped up outside of Wlad who had a notoriously bad recovery rate. Who avoided him?

Maybe Lewis who used the Sanders name in the press, but had no intention of fighting a southpaw.

Odd Lewis, Tyson, and Moorer fought South African Fras Botha but not Sanders in the pros. As an ametuer Sanders beat Botha three times. Everybody knew Sanders was the South African man to beat. But he was not picked? Why?

[JAB5239]

Maybe Lewis who used the Sanders name in the press, but had no intention of fighting a southpaw.

Odd Lewis, Tyson, and Moorer fought South African Fras Botha but not Sanders in the pros. As an ametuer Sanders beat Botha three times. Everybody knew Sanders was the South African man to beat. But he was not picked? Why?

I asked who avoided him and you say "maybe Lewis"? Go ahead and give me a timeline and Sanders ranking at the time compared the the fightersewis did face. The facts remain. Sanders for all his promise and talent lost, was stopped, every time he stepped up. I see no one avoiding him. He was strong and fast, but he never put it all together to go on a run against the top tier competition.

[billeau2]

WRONG. Sanders was ranked #3 by the Ring. Not #9 as you ascertain. Based on their rules when the title is vancate as Lewis did not want to re-match Vitali ( though he said he would ) when a # 2 fighter a #3 and the linal title is vacant, it crowns a new champion. You can look it up.


The lineal champion has retired before with the title. By my count two times. Your hater teeth are showing . ...Byrd had no interest in rematchting Vitali when he held the title. As discussed before he was signed by Don King and went in the merry go round of fights between his men.

There can be more than one set up to maintain the lineal... Why do people constantly fail to recognize this? Why is this considered "bad"? Lewis was out of the picture until he decided to come back which he didn't. So who was the ma who beat the best? One way to determine that is rankings... Jab pointed this out, and whether Sanders is ranked 3 or 9th May become a way to decide. Byrd also had a claim IF he rematched, he did not.

Look, it is like REal Estate. Nobody "owns" outright. You have an ownership interest in your property, the government has police power interests (taxation) if you rent a property the tenant has an interest... the facia is the sign for a real estate transaction because it is a bundle of stix, each stick is an interest.

The lineal works the same way: heredity rights, from which the lineal derives, are similar to property rights... Several fighters may have an interest in the lineal. It gets resolved... It gets resolved because there is flexability, not inspite of it.

[billeau2]

One trick pony? Sanders was a southpaw and one with world class hand speed and KO power. Such a combination did not exist in his time line. He was an avoided fighter the 1990's.

Avoided by fighters like Rahman? Or was Corrie inconsistent? at best?

[billeau2]

Was he boycotted before or after Tubbs stopped him in South Africa? Enquiring minds want to know.

Tubbs, Rahman... I happen to be a big fan of Corrie but Dr Z inflates him to make Vitalie look better and that is obvious. He also tried to get people to fish for a red herring when discussing Sander's ranking. It never really mattered because there are always a plethora of ways to resolve the Lineal, which makes it stronger, not weaker.

[billeau2]

Maybe Lewis who used the Sanders name in the press, but had no intention of fighting a southpaw.

Odd Lewis, Tyson, and Moorer fought South African Fras Botha but not Sanders in the pros. As an ametuer Sanders beat Botha three times. Everybody knew Sanders was the South African man to beat. But he was not picked? Why?

BS. Sanders and Lewis were friends... Vitalie ducked his brother for the same general reasons, where is your shine box?