The Greatness of Joe Frazier and an example of when the lineal was needed and came to the rescue of boxing

[Marchegiano]

Intersting fact, a mere corrolative but intersting never-the-less... Georgia also became the first state, relatively recently, to revise Use of Force policies to allow cops not to automatically Aim to kill, or mag dump, on a perp during a shooting situation. Lol. Go Georgia!

Pep gave you a much better response than I could. It seems to me that King may have been involved at this point, not sure though. Of course there was money in the fight, meaning that this alone guarantees action for a promoter. Aren't you kind of putting the cart before the horse here? Someone knew there was money in promoting the best heavyweight according to the fans, and many (at the time) boxing pundits?

Why does it matter to you? I mean the fans wanted the fight... Someone was going to give it to them... I am confused.

Kudos for the comment on the color line, I agree.

Names and dates matter, just in general. Generalized information brought into sharp detail strips away the need to share opinions with the facts.

Or to say that differently; I get ya bud, I'm like the worst audience to speak to and I feel your frustration but I promise you are in no way failing your original endeavor.



Honestly, I mean no offense to you or any other reader or poster, I thought I was asking pedestrian questions.

Who actually stripped Ali shouldn't be a difficult or loaded question. Edwin B. Dooley was the man in charge of the NYSAC in 67. I can not yet confirm or deny he was pro or anti ali in this matter. I can only tell you he was chair in 67.

To that end, what I mean to highlight is lineal functions beyond the champion-fanatics relationship. lineal, in order to actually function in the business has to also supply the business. That is a function of the bodies. When the bodies are lacking lineal must be default. baseline. Can not get worse than this.


I would argue, under these terms, it was lineal that functioned to implore colorline champions to fight black challengers while the recognized bodies acted as protection for them.

But this is a careful definition to establish and I would have rather highlighted it within your words than to simply throw the idea into the conservation and see where it lands.


By establishing exactly who did original building, the stripping, and the rebuilding, one can, by your definition of lineal and fan forces, identify those who acted in fan interest and those who did not, and there by identify the industry under the industry. Or perhaps above.

[billeau2]

Names and dates matter, just in general. Generalized information brought into sharp detail strips away the need to share opinions with the facts.

Or to say that differently; I get ya bud, I'm like the worst audience to speak to and I feel your frustration but I promise you are in no way failing your original endeavor.



Honestly, I mean no offense to you or any other reader or poster, I thought I was asking pedestrian questions.

Who actually stripped Ali shouldn't be a difficult or loaded question. Edwin B. Dooley was the man in charge of the NYSAC in 67. I can not yet confirm or deny he was pro or anti ali in this matter. I can only tell you he was chair in 67.

To that end, what I mean to highlight is lineal functions beyond the champion-fanatics relationship. lineal, in order to actually function in the business has to also supply the business. That is a function of the bodies. When the bodies are lacking lineal must be default. baseline. Can not get worse than this.


I would argue, under these terms, it was lineal that functioned to implore colorline champions to fight black challengers while the recognized bodies acted as protection for them.

But this is a careful definition to establish and I would have rather highlighted it within your words than to simply throw the idea into the conservation and see where it lands.


By establishing exactly who did original building, the stripping, and the rebuilding, one can, by your definition of lineal and fan forces, identify those who acted in fan interest and those who did not, and there by identify the industry under the industry. Or perhaps above.

Not frustrated! besides I respect the playa. Just being honest about my own questions here.

The lineal makes sense for business sometimes, often it does not for obvious reasons: More champs more moneeeeey!!! But yes Lineal does become the default it would seem to me. It is a process that needs the fans to understand the power that default status holds. I mean when the best heavyweights (notice the plural ahem) are called the best and generally fight each other? Even as a fan of the lineal I have no reason to gripe. Even when they get a little goofy... and designate a horror show of second rate talent as champions I can still keep it in me pants! Now when they start designating multiple belts... I mean whatever, point being there is a limit. That usually is when the lineal can resolve things. How is this bad? Again, not frustrated, just curious. You earned my respect for any and every opinion we may disagree upon, many moons ago.

Now you raise an interesting issue (the bolded). I may be a power to the people kind of guy, and I may try to justify people understanding the strength and breadth of titles modelled after Heredity titles... Like the Lineal... But I would never try to justify the politics of consensus fan opinions... The Greeks believed what was Right, was Good, was just, and was most beneficial, I am not that naive. In other words, that issue is an entire Rabbit hole in itself. You, like some of the more aware posters here can understand this: We are talking attitudes about progress, what it meant to have a racial identity in America when the color line held sway... Lets not forget Ali in many respects was treated like Johnson! How far had we come? How did Blacks feel about White fighters? And what of alliances made? Sure Irish fighters would avoid Black Fighters, but those impoverished living in the five points? invented "the Jig" dancing with elements of Black and Irish influences... Black and Irish had to stick together against those that that would use them as a means to an end... See how complex this issue becomes?

Ok regarding the last paragraph? There were none, absolutely none who cared about the fans, or the fighters, beyond using them both as a means to an end... THAT to me is precisely WHY the lineal matters! Fans and fighters have to see to their own interests. No government, no promoters, no fighters elevated to promoters (an intersting experiment started by De La Hoya) care about the fans, of the fighters beyond payola... Cynical? Yeah but that is my opinion.

[tokon]

Interesting how when the lineal was coming together no one could forsee things like enhancements from steroids. Even the idea of a Disqualification... something which did happen on occasion, was never really addressed. Just interesting.

Yes. Willie thinks differently but imo a failed drug test and ban should have some bearing on lineal status; although it's very difficult to decide what! Maybe an asterisk?!

[Marchegiano]

Not frustrated! besides I respect the playa. Just being honest about my own questions here.

The lineal makes sense for business sometimes, often it does not for obvious reasons: More champs more moneeeeey!!! But yes Lineal does become the default it would seem to me. It is a process that needs the fans to understand the power that default status holds. I mean when the best heavyweights (notice the plural ahem) are called the best and generally fight each other? Even as a fan of the lineal I have no reason to gripe. Even when they get a little goofy... and designate a horror show of second rate talent as champions I can still keep it in me pants! Now when they start designating multiple belts... I mean whatever, point being there is a limit. That usually is when the lineal can resolve things. How is this bad? Again, not frustrated, just curious. You earned my respect for any and every opinion we may disagree upon, many moons ago.

Now you raise an interesting issue (the bolded). I may be a power to the people kind of guy, and I may try to justify people understanding the strength and breadth of titles modelled after Heredity titles... Like the Lineal... But I would never try to justify the politics of consensus fan opinions... The Greeks believed what was Right, was Good, was just, and was most beneficial, I am not that naive. In other words, that issue is an entire Rabbit hole in itself. You, like some of the more aware posters here can understand this: We are talking attitudes about progress, what it meant to have a racial identity in America when the color line held sway... Lets not forget Ali in many respects was treated like Johnson! How far had we come? How did Blacks feel about White fighters? And what of alliances made? Sure Irish fighters would avoid Black Fighters, but those impoverished living in the five points? invented "the Jig" dancing with elements of Black and Irish influences... Black and Irish had to stick together against those that that would use them as a means to an end... See how complex this issue becomes?

Ok regarding the last paragraph? There were none, absolutely none who cared about the fans, or the fighters, beyond using them both as a means to an end... THAT to me is precisely WHY the lineal matters! Fans and fighters have to see to their own interests. No government, no promoters, no fighters elevated to promoters (an intersting experiment started by De La Hoya) care about the fans, of the fighters beyond payola... Cynical? Yeah but that is my opinion.

TEMU and Wish do not care about saving you money.

Honda and Toyota do not actually want you to drive a vehicle for over 200k miles before buying a new one from them.

A market is a market, no one should need any pretense to sell the goods. They need only be the provider of said goods to earn the reputation that comes with the providing.

That is to say it shouldn't matter if a man like Leo Flynn or Richard Fox were exploitative, they all are, a promoter by nature of the relationship is exploiting a boxer's lack of promotional connections while exploiting a fan base's demand to consume. What should matter is when they work in the interest of fans and when they work against them.

Because fans never forced anything. Enticed is what you mean. It is all we have ever been. Enough marks entices a salesman. This is the maximum claim any fan can have over the industry. Ali didn't fight any professional fights with no backing. Sam Langford did not turn the world on his own dime. Someone listened to the fans.

Which I do struggle to understand the purpose of denying or the dichotomy presented. It's as if you're saying a promoter can't be given any lineal credits because a promoter by definition of promoter represents any authority that is not fan authority ... uh, it certainly wasn't the NSC so told richy to make black men belts. Damn sure was not the US government at any level. That USD though, probably. I don't see how that takes away from fan authority rather than validates it.

Leo Flynn was peddling Kid Norfolk for money, sure, but whose money?


Seems like the only thing important to me but you're saying it's besides the point or doesn't exist because a promoter isn't acting in fan interest by capitalizing on fan interest.


Lacking any grassroots protections for Ali, everything already in place seems to have bent the knee at various times toward some force rather than that force creating something new to crown Ali. Given it was very much the state commission and promoters who put together the return. I don't see how it isn't validation.

[QueensburyRules]

How would you know what service Ali would have been given? Intelligence tests given for the draft? really? And You are agreeing with me you ful. I said "Ali was not convicted for draft dodging, did you read the post before hitting the stil? I also made the same point about the gh etto, READ POSTS BEFORE RESPONDING!

Now let me give you a little history lesson for when you sober up... Ali was very beholden to the Nation. the late **** Gregory spoke about this. It is entirely possible they tried to go to bat for Ali... Ali did not really have much say in the matter if one reads between the lines. these lines include why Macolm X left the Nation... What Ali did to counteract that influence was to PROTEST, not to draft dodge... He openly defied the government when he stated unequivivolly "I ain't gonna shoot no Viet Cong."

Now think, something you are occasionally able to do... If you were in Ali's situation, how better to abscond from being a pawn in the Nation? Ali could not more reject the Nation than Malcolm could... But by openly defying the government, as a public figure, he made the Nation's attempts to preserve him as a pawn, untenable. As I said, and Pep said it much better: Ali was not thrown in the clink for draft dodging, no matter what they said, he was made an example of because he openly defied the Government's attempts to coopt his people, for their own imperial purposes. Very similar to Jack Johnson's situation... Johnson's "crime" was not to enjoy his liberty including the company of White Women, his crime was to publickly flaunt and defy the government...

- - Was U the publick then and now?

I'm not Ali and I'm not the one mangling his history. That be U!!!

[billeau2]

Yes. Willie thinks differently but imo a failed drug test and ban should have some bearing on lineal status; although it's very difficult to decide what! Maybe an asterisk?!

Gets into a whole other set of issues. The biggest problem being: How do we reasonably judge the specific enhancements a fighter beniffited from? And how do we determine the general use of substances in the general population of fighters?

[billeau2]

TEMU and Wish do not care about saving you money.

Honda and Toyota do not actually want you to drive a vehicle for over 200k miles before buying a new one from them.

A market is a market, no one should need any pretense to sell the goods. They need only be the provider of said goods to earn the reputation that comes with the providing.

That is to say it shouldn't matter if a man like Leo Flynn or Richard Fox were exploitative, they all are, a promoter by nature of the relationship is exploiting a boxer's lack of promotional connections while exploiting a fan base's demand to consume. What should matter is when they work in the interest of fans and when they work against them.

Because fans never forced anything. Enticed is what you mean. It is all we have ever been. Enough marks entices a salesman. This is the maximum claim any fan can have over the industry. Ali didn't fight any professional fights with no backing. Sam Langford did not turn the world on his own dime. Someone listened to the fans.

Which I do struggle to understand the purpose of denying or the dichotomy presented. It's as if you're saying a promoter can't be given any lineal credits because a promoter by definition of promoter represents any authority that is not fan authority ... uh, it certainly wasn't the NSC so told richy to make black men belts. Damn sure was not the US government at any level. That USD though, probably. I don't see how that takes away from fan authority rather than validates it.

Leo Flynn was peddling Kid Norfolk for money, sure, but whose money?


Seems like the only thing important to me but you're saying it's besides the point or doesn't exist because a promoter isn't acting in fan interest by capitalizing on fan interest.


Lacking any grassroots protections for Ali, everything already in place seems to have bent the knee at various times toward some force rather than that force creating something new to crown Ali. Given it was very much the state commission and promoters who put together the return. I don't see how it isn't validation.

No. I am saying I do not understand your point. Truly? I still do not. Promoters act on what the fans will pay to see am I wrong?

[billeau2]

- - Was U the publick then and now?

I'm not Ali and I'm not the one mangling his history. That be U!!!

You come up with some of the most ridiculous crap... Half the time? just trying to denigrate something you do not even understand. Start drinking later in the day, do us all a favor.

[Willie Pep 229]

Gets into a whole other set of issues. The biggest problem being: How do we reasonably judge the specific enhancements a fighter beniffited from? And how do we determine the general use of substances in the general population of fighters?

Baseball seems to have caught up to the problem.

Boxing resists regulation, and without a governing league, a league with only the best interest of the game at its heart, the state by state commissions and private laboratories are going to fail in this endeavor.

So for now I figure, if a State calls a fight clean, what else can we judge it on, a Reddit or Twitter accusation?

[billeau2]

Baseball seems to have caught up to the problem.

Boxing resists regulation, and without a governing league, a league with only the best interest of the game at its heart, the state by state commissions and private laboratories are going to fail in this endeavor.

So for now I figure, if a State calls a fight clean, what else can we judge it on, a Reddit or Twitter accusation?

So... I have not voted in a presidential election ever. Considering myself a dreamer waiting for when we could all become anarchists. Where we could get things done on principal not because of threat, or prohibition. A place where cops stopped one and chided them about speeding instead of imposing financial ruin, etc. I told people I wanted T r U M P to win purely because the other side had induced Scopes Trial type Argle Bargle ("S ex is not a biological determined aspect of Biology"), censorship regarding the use of pronouns, etc... I thought we needed to be destroyed and in my eyes, when a w h o r e, with no intelligence, no redeeming values, a product of California's patronage system, was not even ********ically elected... I would never cast a vote for the orange man, but I reasoned that the destruction he wrought might induce the gereotocracy, Pelosi, etc to be vanquished...

Which is to say baseball in the seventies was analogous to Harris' De mocratic party... C ocaine everywhere! Players taking Acid (Bill Lee) parties parties! It became so bad they had to make real changes... Unlike the Dems who still will not flush Harris the turd down the toilet, baseball acted. It came down hard with astericks and recriminations... And It kind of worked. How bad does boxing really have to become? How bad does the orange man have to destroy the country? Before people start flushing the turds (Pelosi, Harris, Newsom, etc) down where they belong? Harris is coming back and might well become the next governer of California... Boxing? Well every day we have a new belt... What does it take?

How much crap do people have to swallow? McGovern, Dukkakis were shiat but not that bad... Boxing and the attempt to bypass democracy to get a w h o r e with no whore like redeeming values elected bypassing the ********ic process... that bad? I stick by the lineal because all these agencies do not regulate enough. They get the drug testing down pretty good, but thats only a part of regulation and it is not enough.