The Greatness of Joe Frazier and an example of when the lineal was needed and came to the rescue of boxing

[billeau2]

Queenie's idea of "rehydrating" is opening the tap on a keg of gin

When the judge told Queenie "You're here for drinking" Queenie told him "let's get started."

[kafkod]

When Ali was stripped of his title there was protest. He was considered undisputed. Now, I do not care what any organization said otherwise and the fans felt the same. DEspite a hostile establishment the fans were behind their champion. And so the promoters decided to have a tourney to decide... You ready for this? The undisputed Heavyweight champion of the world. This is also called the Lineal to some of us BTW.

Here is the thing: The fans demanded this. Boxing could not simply make Ali dissapear. The fans knew whom was the best, the undisputed, the lineal... Boxing was not allowed under any color of law, or authority to just make Ali go away.

The lineal ensured that once Frazier won the tourney he fought Ali. No alphabet, no magazine title, no gangster conglomerate had any say in the matter, boxing at its best was determined by the lineal, it was the lineal alone that upheld the position of Ali... Yes there were protests to stripping the title from Ali, as there should have been (to many of us). But the resolution of this situation was clearly a matter of the best versus the best for the undisputed heavyweight lineal belt. Call it what you like...

The lineal here coincided with boxing at its strongest. Frazier was no paper champ. He beat some great fighters! Watch Buster Mathus, watch the man box... Watch Ellis, Frazier beat real quality opposition and proved he was worthy when he fought Ali.

The lineal alone was gracious, equinanimous. judicious and allowed for a situation where the best had to beat the best.

Kafkod and the rest of the Bleaters: Do any of you think some corrupt, self serving American organization would have seen to such a resolution? The establishment wanted to make Ali dissapear. Sure the tourney was carried out under some organization, BUT the chance Ali had, and the resolution of the Title was purely a process of the lineal doing what it was supposed to do.

Ali's ordeal after refusing to be drafted is something I know a lot about. I was an Ali fan to the point of obsession for a while, and fascinated by the impact his conscientious stand had upon society as a whole back then. This was an issue which truly transcended boxing, in the same way as the Luis vs rematch did before WW2.

The Vietnam war divided public opinion both inside and outside the USA to an unprecedented degree, and Ali became the poster boy, if I can put it that way, of the anti-Vietnam war movement all over the world.

Ali's comeback was also global news. People all over the world followed his comeback fights with Quarry and Benavena and there was never any question in anybody's mind about whether Joe Frazier would defend his world title against "The Greatest" after Ali won those fights.

If you are suggesting that Ali vs Frazier 1, "the fight of the century" only happened because of the power of Ali's lineal championship status, you are a million miles off the mark with that!

"The fans" didn't need to demand this fight! It was always going to happen. Most boxing fans back then didn't even know what a lineal champion was, but that didn't matter. Ali was The People's Champion, and a global icon.

[Willie Pep 229]

Ali's ordeal after refusing to be drafted is something I know a lot about. I was an Ali fan to the point of obsession for a while, and fascinated by the impact his conscientious stand had upon society as a whole back then. This was an issue which truly transcended boxing, in the same way as the Luis vs rematch did before WW2.

The Vietnam war divided public opinion both inside and outside the USA to an unprecedented degree, and Ali became the poster boy, if I can put it that way, of the anti-Vietnam war movement all over the world.

Ali's comeback was also global news. People all over the world followed his comeback fights with Quarry and Benavena and there was never any question in anybody's mind about whether Joe Frazier would defend his world title against "The Greatest" after Ali won those fights.

If you are suggesting that Ali vs Frazier 1, "the fight of the century" only happened because of the power of Ali's lineal championship status, you are a million miles off the mark with that!

"The fans" didn't need to demand this fight! It was always going to happen. Most boxing fans back then didn't even know what a lineal champion was, but that didn't matter. Ali was The People's Champion, and a global icon.

The people's champion is the lineal champion.

[kafkod]

The people's champion is the lineal champion.

99.99% of the people don't even know what a lineal champion is.

[Willie Pep 229]

99.99% of the people don't even know what a lineal champion is.

No, but they know the champion is, that's the lineal title.

i was there too. We all accepted Frazier vs. Ellis as the new title holder because we thought Ali would never box again.

Once Ali became avaiable then the Frazier bout was on. We were not going to accept Fraxier as champion so long as Ali was out there. I believe even Frazier knew that.

[kafkod]

No, but they know the champion is, that's the lineal title.

That literally depends on who the champion is!

Everybody knew who Ali was, whether they were boxing fans or not. And everybody knew he had never lost a fight and was stripped of his HW titles for refusing to be drafted.

20 years later, Mike Tyson became almost as well known around the world as Ali. And even before he beat Michael Spinks, 99.99% of sports fans around the world, if asked, would have told you that Mike Tyson was the HW champion of the world.

[billeau2]

Ali's ordeal after refusing to be drafted is something I know a lot about. I was an Ali fan to the point of obsession for a while, and fascinated by the impact his conscientious stand had upon society as a whole back then. This was an issue which truly transcended boxing, in the same way as the Luis vs rematch did before WW2.

The Vietnam war divided public opinion both inside and outside the USA to an unprecedented degree, and Ali became the poster boy, if I can put it that way, of the anti-Vietnam war movement all over the world.

Ali's comeback was also global news. People all over the world followed his comeback fights with Quarry and Benavena and there was never any question in anybody's mind about whether Joe Frazier would defend his world title against "The Greatest" after Ali won those fights.

If you are suggesting that Ali vs Frazier 1, "the fight of the century" only happened because of the power of Ali's lineal championship status, you are a million miles off the mark with that!

"The fans" didn't need to demand this fight! It was always going to happen. Most boxing fans back then didn't even know what a lineal champion was, but that didn't matter. Ali was The People's Champion, and a global icon.

The fight was going to happen? Do you know how the fight happened? And the point of the tournament was to create a coherent line with a champion. Ali's "retirement" Involuntary retirement to be exact was a perfect example of the power of the fans to demand a chance for Ali to fight as a former champ. Call it anythig you want it was the lineal at work, doing what it is supposed to do.

And I disagree with you about the fight happening. The establishment was fine with letting Ali rot including while waiting for a trial. Ali's charisma made them have to follow the will of the people and create an opportunity because Ali sold tickets! See how that works? Interests co-join, the powers that be are forced by money to act. And act they did creating one of the best heavyweight divisions, perhaps the best ever... One of the most powerful because people were forced to fight each other.

I really think you should look at your reasoning, I say that constructively. Ali was a contestant for a lineal title, Call it anything you like. The fight happened because the fans wanted to unify the title... call it anything you want... Unifying the title created Frazier (initially) the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world... call it anything you want. I call it the lineal.

[billeau2]

The people's champion is the lineal champion.

Oy vay! I mean its really not obvious to Kafkod?

[billeau2]

No, but they know the champion is, that's the lineal title.

i was there too. We all accepted Frazier vs. Ellis as the new title holder because we thought Ali would never box again.

Once Ali became avaiable then the Frazier bout was on. We were not going to accept Fraxier as champion so long as Ali was out there. I believe even Frazier knew that.

And who else knew that? The people that sell fights to fans knew that. We all demanded that fight exactly as you say. So the fight was made. The power of the lineal compelled the capitalists to provide. Simple economics really.

[billeau2]

That literally depends on who the champion is!

Everybody knew who Ali was, whether they were boxing fans or not. And everybody knew he had never lost a fight and was stripped of his HW titles for refusing to be drafted.

20 years later, Mike Tyson became almost as well known around the world as Ali. And even before he beat Michael Spinks, 99.99% of sports fans around the world, if asked, would have told you that Mike Tyson was the HW champion of the world.

What do you think would have happened if Ali was labelled an inserrectionist? A co-conspirator with ties to the Nation of Islam and Malcolm X? The government asked to indict him on such charges? With the people behind the endictement?

Think boy think!!!. Here is a clue ok? When Senator McCarthy, a true rube who had illusions of grandeur, went after J e w i sh producers and actors in Hollywood, he destroyed their careers. Some managed to make it through the witch hunt. You have to understand the power of the government and how it is compelled to act on behalf of the citizenry in Murica. The government is a large hammer, it cannot act with discretion and according to the mean... It is a Frankenstein, and once set on a course, look out! People compelled the government through their actions and protests to act during the Vietnam War and Ali was a major figure because of is noble gesture and words that should be enshrined in any space capsule we send out, to show the potential the human race has...

Power of the people is lineal! Ali had a legitimate claim according to the lineal.

Just a remainder to all: Great thinkers like Hume told us, "Science is Post Priori only constructing a truth after the fact" But it takes a bit to understand why Hume was the Suger Ray Robinson of continental philosophers...

Ali's words are so simple, so elegant and tell a truth everyone can abide by: "I ain't got no beef with no Viet Cong, why should I shoot at them?"