The Greatness of Joe Frazier and an example of when the lineal was needed and came to the rescue of boxing

[billeau2]

His story is so covered, the first time I ever actually ran across it was in a comic book! That sort of media is the bulk of Ali info for most of my life. Then you see his fights on YT, well at least I got to, before the copyright lawyer got on YT. Anyway the point is, I'm probably not alone in saying I know the mythological, for lack of a better term, Ali well. He's become an American hero, or at least icon. Then I just went through his career best I could and was like, yup, get it, fantastic skill set and stood up one man against a nation. That's not hard to get.



But a purely boxing perspective is hard to come by,at least conversationally. Which I believe has proven itself as its own medium. It's fine to say you don't know something, if that is the case, but I have never known you to be withholding or shy to answer with a look it up.

So, i want to revisit "the mechanism that actually strips Ali":


As far as I know, boxing does not strip world champions for breaking the law. It would be interesting to bring Mike Tyson because he's very much in the same boat. I never did look into his crimes. But is seems like boxing actually just cares about defense and schedule.

In Jack Johnson's case, well, the only bodies that spoke to JJ were Euro and had no real reason to back the American law or care about him breaking it.

Can you speak to that? Was it Ali broke the law and struggled to keep up with being champion during the time when he was viewed as a criminal in the US? Was it the NBA/NYSAC being order by judges? How exactly does Ali breaking American law lead to him being stripped?

Who promoted the next champions? I do mean who were their promoters.

From a purely boxing perspective there are three things that stand out to me. Superhuman reflexes, along the lines of Jones, Locche, Maybe Robinson... The fact that he lost his nice juicy center piece of the watermelon (his prime) and still showed what he did, and how Ali seemed to control the intangibles like no other fighter I can think of.

The boxing establishment had to figure out what to do when Ali was sentenced... call it "stripping" substituting, call it what you want. I think you are missing a central point I am trying to make here Brudda. I agree that boxing gave no shiats for Ali, or any fighter in particular. It is kind of my point. Here is another angle... When boxing lost control over the transition of the title(s), the fans and the other fighters jumped in to fill a void. The structure of those actions was dictated by the Lineal because the lineal was needed.

Ali just was in a situation where he could not fight. Again call it stripped, retired, the fact remained that there had to be a viable way to deal with Ali's situation. According to the function of the lineal, Ali could wait and fight the man that beat the best, which is exactly what happened. The contest would then be logical: Frazier won the tourney and Ali was a retired champion according to the lineal guidelines.

So to summarize: I do not know how Ali being a convicted man per se conflicts with any title. All I know is it puts him in a situation defined by the lineal as a retired champion with a claim to being the undisputed. The best thing to do, was done. Fighters fought for the right to face Ali and eventually the integrity of the lineal was restored after Frazier and Ali clashed x3.

The fight off, tournament, was one big promotion in itself. I do not know the promoters involved because from my POV it hardly matters. Regardless of "who" and I do believe it was an alphabet belt(s), someone will know for sure... the form and resolution was correct and led to having the best and the undisputed champion who beat the best to become the best.

The promoters and organizations were acting in their self interest entirely, the fighters were acting mostly to their self interest but had sympathy for Ali and his decision, and the fans were pretty much behind Ali. creating a major schism between the sports establishment and the fans.

[tokon]

He was champion after the snooze fest with Wald. He sat, his out of shape azz, on the title while Joshua positioned himself for a mega fight.

Fury finally made himself available but AJ stumbled against Ruiz throwing the timeline out of wack.

Fury fought Wilder one time too many; AJ stumbled again with Usyk; Usyk beats AJ twice and Usyk beats Fury twice.

Usyk gets the nod.

W. Klitschko
Fury
Usyk

AJ gets remembered as an almost.

Sorry not sure what you wanted.

Sorry for not being more specific; Fury was lineal after beating Klitchko? Or just "champion"? If he was lineal, did he lose it by testing positive for steroids? And he lineal after beating Wilder?

[billeau2]

Sorry for not being more specific; Fury was lineal after beating Klitchko? Or just "champion"? If he was lineal, did he lose it by testing positive for steroids? And he lineal after beating Wilder?

Interesting how when the lineal was coming together no one could forsee things like enhancements from steroids. Even the idea of a Disqualification... something which did happen on occasion, was never really addressed. Just interesting.

[Willie Pep 229]

Sorry for not being more specific; Fury was lineal after beating Klitchko? Or just "champion"? If he was lineal, did he lose it by testing positive for steroids? And he lineal after beating Wilder?

OK . . . First the roids.

The lineal title would not concern itself with PEDs That would be a commission decision. If a state commission sanctions a fight, it's a fight.

If they strip him of the win post fight, then from the lineal perspective it would be a NC.

(I don't think that that PEDs scenario has a lineal precedent [yet] for us to reference.)

The Klitschko fight. Yes Fury did win the lineal title in that fight. Wald, had for the most part, cleaned out what was a poor field, and his long list of defenses earned him the lineal title as heir apparent to Lewis.

So, Fury takes the lineal title that night.

In the lineal argument, you would call the three Wilder fights, Fury defenses.

Lewis
Klitschko
Fury
Usyk

In reference to Fury's retirement.

Had Joshua and Wilder fought-off during the Fury retirement period, one of them might have been in the position to claim the lineal crown.

But neither AJ or Wilder seemed much interested in facing off and were content to collect belts in easy mandatories.

They didn't step up, and fight eachother, so when Fury returned, neither AJ or Wilder could argue they were the best.

So the last time we had a 'best' guy it was Fury. So he got to keep the moniker: lineal champion.

[Willie Pep 229]

From a purely boxing perspective there are three things that stand out to me. Superhuman reflexes, along the lines of Jones, Locche, Maybe Robinson... The fact that he lost his nice juicy center piece of the watermelon (his prime) and still showed what he did, and how Ali seemed to control the intangibles like no other fighter I can think of.

The boxing establishment had to figure out what to do when Ali was sentenced... call it "stripping" substituting, call it what you want. I think you are missing a central point I am trying to make here Brudda. I agree that boxing gave no shiats for Ali, or any fighter in particular. It is kind of my point. Here is another angle... When boxing lost control over the transition of the title(s), the fans and the other fighters jumped in to fill a void. The structure of those actions was dictated by the Lineal because the lineal was needed.

Ali just was in a situation where he could not fight. Again call it stripped, retired, the fact remained that there had to be a viable way to deal with Ali's situation. According to the function of the lineal, Ali could wait and fight the man that beat the best, which is exactly what happened. The contest would then be logical: Frazier won the tourney and Ali was a retired champion according to the lineal guidelines.

So to summarize: I do not know how Ali being a convicted man per se conflicts with any title. All I know is it puts him in a situation defined by the lineal as a retired champion with a claim to being the undisputed. The best thing to do, was done. Fighters fought for the right to face Ali and eventually the integrity of the lineal was restored after Frazier and Ali clashed x3.

The fight off, tournament, was one big promotion in itself. I do not know the promoters involved because from my POV it hardly matters. Regardless of "who" and I do believe it was an alphabet belt(s), someone will know for sure... the form and resolution was correct and led to having the best and the undisputed champion who beat the best to become the best.

The promoters and organizations were acting in their self interest entirely, the fighters were acting mostly to their self interest but had sympathy for Ali and his decision, and the fans were pretty much behind Ali. creating a major schism between the sports establishment and the fans.

After his conviction, but out on bond awaiting appeal, Muhammad Ali found that he couldn't get a State Commission to licence him because he was a convicted felon.

Unlike the romantic stories of men coming out of prison, using boxing to turn their lives around. Ali had not yet served his debt to society, so the States refused to licence him.

There was no national boxing organization per se who had the authority to deny Ali the right to fight. The SBs could strip his title but that didn't mean anything.

Ali just couldn't get a licence while he was free on bond waiting an appeal. (And he couldn't leave the country, because he was out on bond.)

But then the Vietnam War changed and with it the popular temperament towards the war. Ali in late 1970, was suddenly able to get the State of Georgia to grant him a licence and the Quarry fight was on.

The State of Georgia made their own decision.

In fact after Ali got licenced to fight in Georgia several months before the Supreme Court actually overturned Ali's conviction in June 1971.

This also applies to the Ali-Bonavena fight as well. Which took place in December 1970, still six months before the Supreme Court overturned the conviction. (Yet he was now somehow licenced by both Georgia and the NYSAC)

And finally the damn Fight of the Century itself, with Frazier in March 1971, was fought a full three months before the Supreme Court released its decision.

This shows us that Ali could have fought any time during his conviction/appeal period (1967-1971) if just any one State would have chosen to back Ali. None did. It was a conspiracy, that is, until Georgia broke the boycott in fall 1970.

But as I said, by then the War had changed.

Why Georgia stepped up in 1970 and licenced Ali has always been a puzzle to me. But they did it first.

Why New York changed its mind for the Bonavena and then Frazier fights, I think is obvious. ($)

Once Georgia broke the boycott there was no way New York was keeping itself out of the game. There was just too much money to be made off the Ali-Frazier fight and NY just couldn't bear to let Georgia have all that money.

In short: there was no national authority to strip Ali of his title or his licence. Ali got screwed one State at a time.

I think it should be noted directly, that during the period Ali was denied the right to fight, and when he was finally allowed to return to fighting, there had been no change in his legal status. He was still a convicted felon, awaiting appeal.

It was a conspiracy against him by the State governments that stop Ali from fighting for three years, until Georgia decided not to cooperate.

P.S. They tried to do the same thing to Jack Johnson with the Fireman Jim Flynn fight back in 1912 but the brand new State of New Mexico refused to go along.

[Marchegiano]

After his conviction, but out on bond awaiting appeal, Muhammad Ali found that he couldn't get a State Commission to licence him because he was a convicted felon.

Unlike the romantic stories of men coming out of prison, using boxing to turn their lives around. Ali had not yet served his debt to society, so the States refused to licence him.

There was no national boxing organization per se who had the authority to deny Ali the right to fight. The SBs could strip his title but that didn't mean anything.

Ali just couldn't get a licence while he was free on bond waiting an appeal. (And he couldn't leave the country, because he was out on bond.)

But then the Vietnam War changed and with it the popular temperament towards the war. Ali in late 1970, was suddenly able to get the State of Georgia to grant him a licence and the Quarry fight was on.

The State of Georgia made their own decision.

In fact after Ali got licenced to fight in Georgia several months before the Supreme Court actually overturned Ali's conviction in June 1971.

This also applies to the Ali-Bonavena fight as well. Which took place in December 1970, still six months before the Supreme Court overturned the conviction. (Yet he was now somehow licenced by both Georgia and the NYSAC)

And finally the damn Fight of the Century itself, with Frazier in March 1971, was fought a full three months before the Supreme Court released its decision.

This shows us that Ali could have fought any time during his conviction/appeal period (1967-1971) if just any one State would have chosen to back Ali. None did. It was a conspiracy, that is, until Georgia broke the boycott in fall 1970.

But as I said, by then the War had changed.

Why Georgia stepped up in 1970 and licenced Ali has always been a puzzle to me. But they did it first.

Why New York changed its mind for the Bonavena and then Frazier fights, I think is obvious. ($)

Once Georgia broke the boycott there was no way New York was keeping itself out of the game. There was just too much money to be made off the Ali-Frazier fight and NY just couldn't bare to let Georgia have all that money.

In short: there was no national authority to strip Ali of his title or his licence. Ali got screwed one State at a time.

I think it should be noted directly, that during the period Ali was denied the right to fight, and when he was finally allowed to return to fighting, there had been no change in his legal status. He was still a convicted felon, awaiting appeal.

It was a conspiracy against him by the State governments that stop Ali from fighting for three years, until Georgia decided not to cooperate.

P.S. They tried to do the same thing to Jack Johnson with the Fireman Jim Flynn fight back in 1912 but the brand new State of New Mexico refused to go along.

Seems not terribly dissimilar to white promoters of color line champions signing fights then ****ing with commissions to make sure the scheduling can't actually happen.




So, as I have it:


Ali catches a conviction, NBA/NYSAC officially strip him immediately, no state is willing to allow him to fight and travel would end his case badly, no criminal case changes are made, Georgia folds to the awesome pressure of Ali bucks ... that sounds like hyperbole but I do mean it, seems like Ali was famous and Georgia wanted that cash.


The only element, imo, missing is the promoters. There's nothing in this thread talking about who the money men on both sides are or what they want. Ali put on his last fight alone? Did he put on the Georgia fight alone? Are you telling me money does not grease politics?

[QueensburyRules]

Ali did not go to jail because he dodged the draft. He went to jail because he made a protest out of the act of refusing to go to war. He famously made the statement that resonates with this generation you speak of: "I ain't got nothing against no viet Cong." He spoke for a generation of black men who were once again being used as cannon fodder.

Every g hetto was a recruiting station and you would see the bodies coming back. And Ali not content just to be given a cushy assignment and allowed to box made the point. And I believe it was Nixon who was instrumental in finally having to stop the war. I only remember being on my mother's back hearing in cat calls as she went to protests with me on her back. In her case, even though I was too young she wanted to support other mothers who had children who were draft age.

So I hope that helps. It's true though. It's hard to understand how great Ali was. He would say ****** things and smile. People who were very intelligent and well educated like my parents never doubted the intelligence and goodness of Ali. And unlike today, saying a few silly things or regrettable things didn't mean much to anybody. Provided you did the right thing.

- - Oh dear, mangling history again, eh?

Clay like every 18 yr old male of his era had to register with the local military center where he was given an intelligence test that he failed that disqualified him from military service. Later needing more bodies, his test was good enough to make him draftable.

Every 18 yr old male then had a choice to either sign on voluntarily and if qualified go into officer training, or get drafted where they were likely going to Vietnam, yet not a guarantee.

Ali being so high profile would've been used like Joe Louis who never saw combat but did much to boost troop morale with exhibitions.

It wasn't a dodge, it was the proverbial line in the sand drawn with a sword for all the men to cross over to join up. Ali refused to step forward.

Now Ali wasn't very popular then and had a hard time getting venues because of the albatross of Black ******s that saw his mentor Malcom assassinated by NOI.

Nonetheless, he had some top lawyers such that the Supremes refused to respect the legal proceedings used against him, so case closed.

The Draft conscripted po'boys unable to go to college, ie vast Majority so called White. War is Hell, so no need to mangle it any more than it already is...yer welcome...

[billeau2]

After his conviction, but out on bond awaiting appeal, Muhammad Ali found that he couldn't get a State Commission to licence him because he was a convicted felon.

Unlike the romantic stories of men coming out of prison, using boxing to turn their lives around. Ali had not yet served his debt to society, so the States refused to licence him.

There was no national boxing organization per se who had the authority to deny Ali the right to fight. The SBs could strip his title but that didn't mean anything.

Ali just couldn't get a licence while he was free on bond waiting an appeal. (And he couldn't leave the country, because he was out on bond.)

But then the Vietnam War changed and with it the popular temperament towards the war. Ali in late 1970, was suddenly able to get the State of Georgia to grant him a licence and the Quarry fight was on.

The State of Georgia made their own decision.

In fact after Ali got licenced to fight in Georgia several months before the Supreme Court actually overturned Ali's conviction in June 1971.

This also applies to the Ali-Bonavena fight as well. Which took place in December 1970, still six months before the Supreme Court overturned the conviction. (Yet he was now somehow licenced by both Georgia and the NYSAC)

And finally the damn Fight of the Century itself, with Frazier in March 1971, was fought a full three months before the Supreme Court released its decision.

This shows us that Ali could have fought any time during his conviction/appeal period (1967-1971) if just any one State would have chosen to back Ali. None did. It was a conspiracy, that is, until Georgia broke the boycott in fall 1970.

But as I said, by then the War had changed.

Why Georgia stepped up in 1970 and licenced Ali has always been a puzzle to me. But they did it first.

Why New York changed its mind for the Bonavena and then Frazier fights, I think is obvious. ($)

Once Georgia broke the boycott there was no way New York was keeping itself out of the game. There was just too much money to be made off the Ali-Frazier fight and NY just couldn't bare to let Georgia have all that money.

In short: there was no national authority to strip Ali of his title or his licence. Ali got screwed one State at a time.

I think it should be noted directly, that during the period Ali was denied the right to fight, and when he was finally allowed to return to fighting, there had been no change in his legal status. He was still a convicted felon, awaiting appeal.

It was a conspiracy against him by the State governments that stop Ali from fighting for three years, until Georgia decided not to cooperate.

P.S. They tried to do the same thing to Jack Johnson with the Fireman Jim Flynn fight back in 1912 but the brand new State of New Mexico refused to go along.

Pep... Your last two posts... You must have been "one of those" teachers... The kind I tried to be as well, that really taught, did not seek to control behavior, to babysit. Your explanations here were just fantastic. I recognize the type of individual. I left High school teaching because it was becoming about everything but interesting the kids in the world. It broke my heart actually lol, but when I taught in one of the worse schools in San Francisco I had such a great experience with the kids. Twice the cops were called because someone saw a Caucasian individual in the hood surrounded by about ten Black Youths...

I used to occasionally take the class out to a great local BBQ place, and we would walk down there from the High school hence the call in. It is just so nice to see that quality in a poster here. I recognize it and really cherish it.

[billeau2]

Seems not terribly dissimilar to white promoters of color line champions signing fights then ****ing with commissions to make sure the scheduling can't actually happen.




So, as I have it:


Ali catches a conviction, NBA/NYSAC officially strip him immediately, no state is willing to allow him to fight and travel would end his case badly, no criminal case changes are made, Georgia folds to the awesome pressure of Ali bucks ... that sounds like hyperbole but I do mean it, seems like Ali was famous and Georgia wanted that cash.


The only element, imo, missing is the promoters. There's nothing in this thread talking about who the money men on both sides are or what they want. Ali put on his last fight alone? Did he put on the Georgia fight alone? Are you telling me money does not grease politics?

Intersting fact, a mere corrolative but intersting never-the-less... Georgia also became the first state, relatively recently, to revise Use of Force policies to allow cops not to automatically Aim to kill, or mag dump, on a perp during a shooting situation. Lol. Go Georgia!

Pep gave you a much better response than I could. It seems to me that King may have been involved at this point, not sure though. Of course there was money in the fight, meaning that this alone guarantees action for a promoter. Aren't you kind of putting the cart before the horse here? Someone knew there was money in promoting the best heavyweight according to the fans, and many (at the time) boxing pundits?

Why does it matter to you? I mean the fans wanted the fight... Someone was going to give it to them... I am confused.

Kudos for the comment on the color line, I agree.

[billeau2]

- - Oh dear, mangling history again, eh?

Clay like every 18 yr old male of his era had to register with the local military center where he was given an intelligence test that he failed that disqualified him from military service. Later needing more bodies, his test was good enough to make him draftable.

Every 18 yr old male then had a choice to either sign on voluntarily and if qualified go into officer training, or get drafted where they were likely going to Vietnam, yet not a guarantee.

Ali being so high profile would've been used like Joe Louis who never saw combat but did much to boost troop morale with exhibitions.

It wasn't a dodge, it was the proverbial line in the sand drawn with a sword for all the men to cross over to join up. Ali refused to step forward.

Now Ali wasn't very popular then and had a hard time getting venues because of the albatross of Black ******s that saw his mentor Malcom assassinated by NOI.

Nonetheless, he had some top lawyers such that the Supremes refused to respect the legal proceedings used against him, so case closed.

The Draft conscripted po'boys unable to go to college, ie vast Majority so called White. War is Hell, so no need to mangle it any more than it already is...yer welcome...

How would you know what service Ali would have been given? Intelligence tests given for the draft? really? And You are agreeing with me you ful. I said "Ali was not convicted for draft dodging, did you read the post before hitting the stil? I also made the same point about the gh etto, READ POSTS BEFORE RESPONDING!

Now let me give you a little history lesson for when you sober up... Ali was very beholden to the Nation. the late **** Gregory spoke about this. It is entirely possible they tried to go to bat for Ali... Ali did not really have much say in the matter if one reads between the lines. these lines include why Macolm X left the Nation... What Ali did to counteract that influence was to PROTEST, not to draft dodge... He openly defied the government when he stated unequivivolly "I ain't gonna shoot no Viet Cong."

Now think, something you are occasionally able to do... If you were in Ali's situation, how better to abscond from being a pawn in the Nation? Ali could not more reject the Nation than Malcolm could... But by openly defying the government, as a public figure, he made the Nation's attempts to preserve him as a pawn, untenable. As I said, and Pep said it much better: Ali was not thrown in the clink for draft dodging, no matter what they said, he was made an example of because he openly defied the Government's attempts to coopt his people, for their own imperial purposes. Very similar to Jack Johnson's situation... Johnson's "crime" was not to enjoy his liberty including the company of White Women, his crime was to publickly flaunt and defy the government...