Sonny Liston one of the greatest

[Biledriver]

You can't reason because you're unreasonable. You want to compare Listons losses? Marty Marshall. Had his jaw broke and KEPT fighting anyway, then avenged that loss in a rematch. Vits quit against Byrd. No rematch. Liston got stretched in his second to last fight at AT LEAST 38 years old, probably older, but I have no proof of that. Vits got his face torn of by Lewis who was just shy of 38 and in his last fight. Vits never beat a lineal champion, Liston did. Vits not only didn't clean out the division, he let his brother fight the best fighters. Liston cleared out the division except for guys like Johansson who admitted they would cross the road if the saw Sonny coming.

why do you need my list? You've seen where I tank Liston. My list has nothing to do with this thread, though I would say his ranking does.

And who is hiding behind "unknown facts"? Would that be you calling Liston a cheater, yet with no tangible evidence.

There is a reason not only people like myself and history rate Liston not only highly, but over Vits. If you were just a little more reasonable you might get it.

That poster's game was exposed a long time ago. Tunney 2.0

[JAB5239]

Well if we start a thread "The Top Ten Greatest Enigmas in Boxing, I think we would all put Lewiston at the top of the list.

I would love to know the whole truth about several others events as well. But Ali-Liston II would be my number one.

An enigma i agree with. Kind of like Tunney-Dempsey 2. But no proof of some Machiavellian plot in either case.

[Dr Z]

You can't reason because you're unreasonable. You want to compare Listons losses? Marty Marshall. Had his jaw broke and KEPT fighting anyway, then avenged that loss in a rematch. Vits quit against Byrd. No rematch. Liston got stretched in his second to last fight at AT LEAST 38 years old, probably older, but I have no proof of that. Vits got his face torn of by Lewis who was just shy of 38 and in his last fight. Vits never beat a lineal champion, Liston did. Vits not only didn't clean out the division, he let his brother fight the best fighters. Liston cleared out the division except for guys like Johansson who admitted they would cross the road if the saw Sonny coming.

why do you need my list? You've seen where I tank Liston. My list has nothing to do with this thread, though I would say his ranking does.

And who is hiding behind "unknown facts"? Would that be you calling Liston a cheater, yet with no tangible evidence.

There is a reason not only people like myself and history rate Liston not only highly, but over Vits. If you were just a little more reasonable you might get it.

Liston lost to lesser fighters while Vitali was only defeated by men who were ranked #1 by ring magazine. See the difference?!

Byrd won due to Vital's torn shoulder. That it. You agree that a healthy Vitali would beat him. So what is your point?

It might shock you to learn that Listion is not rated highly as you think by 2000- 1960's in an all time sense . No one famous ranks him #6 You stand alone there cowboy.

Now may I see your list? I will PM you 10 not so easy ratings of authors and historians, and magners. Do we have a deal?

[JAB5239]

Liston lost to lesser fighters while Vitali was only defeated by men who were ranked #1 by ring magazine. See the difference?!

Byrd won due to Vital's torn shoulder. That it. You agree that a healthy Vitali would beat him. So what is your point?

It might shock you to learn that Listion is not rated highly as you think by 2000- 1960's in an all time sense . No one famous ranks him #6 You stand alone there cowboy.

Now may I see your list? I will PM you 10 not so easy ratings of authors and historians, and magners. Do we have a deal?

Byrd was not ranked number one and came to Germany on 10 days notice. The difference is Liston rematched and beat Marshall. You can say Byrd only won due to injury, but the fight was very close and Vits never rematched to avenge that loss. So what's your point.

You should read more carefully. I said 8th, not 6th. And i can already tell you at least two that do without even looking. For a fact i can tell you Matt McGrain does, as does the IBRO.

Im curious why you need my list? What does it have to do with the topic at hand? And if you're so sure of yourself, why don't you post them here. I know one thing, no historian, manager nor author ranks Vits above Liston. Not anyone worth they're salt. So getting back to my point....why do you think so highly of Vits and so little of Liston when Liston accomplished more?

[solidman]

Liston lost to lesser fighters while Vitali was only defeated by men who were ranked #1 by ring magazine. See the difference?!

Byrd won due to Vital's torn shoulder. That it. You agree that a healthy Vitali would beat him. So what is your point?

It might shock you to learn that Listion is not rated highly as you think by 2000- 1960's in an all time sense . No one famous ranks him #6 You stand alone there cowboy.

Now may I see your list? I will PM you 10 not so easy ratings of authors and historians, and magners. Do we have a deal?

I have Liston number 4 of all time

[Mr Mitts]

The biggest questions about Liston are his heart and integrity. He might have had a big glare on him, but a glare is not fighting. That said, not many could beat him. Johnson had too tough a mindset on him for Liston to overcome IMO. Liston could never have lived like Johnson did in his era. Johnson had one of the toughest mentalities of anyone who was ever laced into boxing mitts. There is no other way of viewing his life.

[Dr Z]

Byrd was not ranked number one and came to Germany on 10 days notice. The difference is Liston rematched and beat Marshall. You can say Byrd only won due to injury, but the fight was very close and Vits never rematched to avenge that loss. So what's your point.

You should read more carefully. I said 8th, not 6th. And i can already tell you at least two that do without even looking. For a fact i can tell you Matt McGrain does, as does the IBRO.

Im curious why you need my list? What does it have to do with the topic at hand? And if you're so sure of yourself, why don't you post them here. I know one thing, no historian, manager nor author ranks Vits above Liston. Not anyone worth they're salt. So getting back to my point....why do you think so highly of Vits and so little of Liston when Liston accomplished more?

You're wrong, Byrd was ring ranked.

Bryd, as I told you, was promoted by Don King and did not seek a re-match. I will take a page for your book and say prove to me that he did. You will see that King fighters did not face Klitschko unless his title was on the line. Duh.

I see you are too embarrassed to show your list. Show it. At any rate very few historians agree with you on thier lists as I mentioned.

Liston fought smaller, weaker men who often had glass jaws. His resume is almost void of punchers. He did not beat better competition , so says ring magazine. What source do you have that says he does? You won't asnwer this either.

As stated you sometimes have bad info as do not answer my questions.

[JAB5239]

You're wrong, Byrd was ring ranked.

Bryd, as I told you, was promoted by Don King and did not seek a re-match. I will take a page for your book and say prove to me that he did. You will see that King fighters did not face Klitschko unless his title was on the line. Duh.

I see you are too embarrassed to show your list. Show it. At any rate very few historians agree with you on thier lists as I mentioned.

Liston fought smaller, weaker men who often had glass jaws. His resume is almost void of punchers. He did not beat better competition , so says ring magazine. What source do you have that says he does? You won't asnwer this either.

As stated you sometimes have bad info as do not answer my questions.

You have a serious problem with reading, don't you? I said he wasn't ranked number one as YOU claimed. But if you want to get into it than please show me how and where he was ranked. VIts was number 7 in the year end for 1999. Byrd wasn't on there because he had lost to Ibeabuchi even though he had been rated the year before. He beat no one of not before making avits quit and climbing back in the ratings.

Why would I be embarrassed? Go ahead and tell me what relevance it has to this discussion and I'll post it. If not, what would be the point otherwise? Sorry, but you can't pressure me, it doesn't work.

Liston is and will be remembered as the greater fighter. You love to bring up things like the loss to Marshall, but you conveniently leave out things like it was Listons seventh professional fight. You like to say he beat smaller men, but are to blind to see that Vits quit against a smaller man. You claim Lidton isn't that revered by many historians, authors experts and trainers. You say you can easily provide a list, but only if I show you my top 10. My top 10 has nothing to do with this, and YOU brought it up, not me. Just like you brought up your supposed list but are demanding some quid pro quo to see it. Sound like more of your BS just like when you said you had proof Holmes was kicked out of Ali's camp and you were proven wrong. Run along now boy, you're boring me again.

[Bronson66]

You have a serious problem with reading, don't you? I said he wasn't ranked number one as YOU claimed. But if you want to get into it than please show me how and where he was ranked. VIts was number 7 in the year end for 1999. Byrd wasn't on there because he had lost to Ibeabuchi even though he had been rated the year before. He beat no one of not before making avits quit and climbing back in the ratings.

Why would I be embarrassed? Go ahead and tell me what relevance it has to this discussion and I'll post it. If not, what would be the point otherwise? Sorry, but you can't pressure me, it doesn't work.

Liston is and will be remembered as the greater fighter. You love to bring up things like the loss to Marshall, but you conveniently leave out things like it was Listons seventh professional fight. You like to say he beat smaller men, but are to blind to see that Vits quit against a smaller man. You claim Lidton isn't that revered by many historians, authors experts and trainers. You say you can easily provide a list, but only if I show you my top 10. My top 10 has nothing to do with this, and YOU brought it up, not me. Just like you brought up your supposed list but are demanding some quid pro quo to see it. Sound like more of your BS just like when you said you had proof Holmes was kicked out of Ali's camp and you were proven wrong. Run along now boy, you're boring me again.

Bryd was NOT ranked when he beat Vitali,as you rightly stated his loss to Ike had taken him out of the rankings.Byrd was not ranked again until after he beat Vitali. We have been over this several times and Cliff Rold corrected several assertions made by You Know Who.
Vitali defended against 5 Ring ranked men,Adamek,Gomez,Sanders ,Peter, and Kirk Johnson.Vitali never defended against the number 1 challenger
I don't know why Vitali has crept into a thread on Liston but, since he has ,his resume does not stand comparison to Sonny's and, as far as I am aware no reputable boxing historian ranks him in their top ten.

Liston beat Ring ranked men 8 times. Patterson,DeJohn,Folley.Harris,Machen.Valdes.Hunte r,and he defended against the number 1 challenger twice. Patterson and Ali.
The statement that no one famous ranks Liston in their top ten is total rubbish. The Ring in2017 ranked Liston number 10.Their contributors to the list included many trainers, champions and boxing writers.
For example Herb Goldman put Liston at number2,Richard O Brien ,Senior Editor of Sports Illustrated placed Liston at number3 , Alfie Hamer of Sportster has Liston at number3.Jim Jacobs had Liston in the top 4,Gerald Suster "Champions Of the Ring",has Liston in his top ten,as did Jerry Izenberg and Terry Leigh Lye. Bert Sugar is certainly famous if not particularly respected, he had Liston at no8 .Reg Gutteridge both famous and respected had Liston in his top ten, as did Harry Carpenter and the recently deceased Colin Hart.
Your points on the young, inexperienced Liston ,being thrown in with Summerlin and the 7th ranked Lhvy Marshall,are well taken,but we know they will be ignored,as the ability to perceive context does not figure in the make up of the poster you are debating and winning against.

You arer also correct about Holmes voluntarily leaving ali's camp as a sparring partner to strike out on his own.Larry has many times confirmed this and I've posted his words on this myself.
What relevance demands for others posters lists has to any debate , as in a hostage for hostage deal, escapes me entirely! Then again we are looking for a logical thought process to argue against and that has never been forthcoming!
You are again correct when discussing who is considered the greater fighter.
The Ring 2017 had them as follows.
1.Ali
2.Louis
3.Johnson
4.Marciano.
5. Holmes.
6.Dempsey
7.Foreman
8. Frazier
9.Tyson
10.Liston

Wlad was no16 .
Vitali no 17.

[max baer]

Bryd was NOT ranked when he beat Vitali,as you rightly stated his loss to Ike had taken him out of the rankings.Byrd was not ranked again until after he beat Vitali. We have been over this several times and Cliff Rold corrected several assertions made by You Know Who.
Vitali defended against 5 Ring ranked men,Adamek,Gomez,Sanders ,Peter, and Kirk Johnson.Vitali never defended against the number 1 challenger
I don't know why Vitali has crept into thread on Liston but, since he has ,his resume does not stand comparison to Sonny's and, as far as I am aware no reputable boxing historian ranks him in their top ten.

Liston beat Ring ranked men 8 times. Patterson,DeJohn,Folley.Harris,Machen.Valdes.Hunte r,and he defended against the number 1 challenger twice. Patterson and Ali.
The statement that no one famous ranks Liston in their top ten is total rubbish. The Ring in2017 ranked Liston number 10.Their contributors to the list included many trainers, champions and boxing writers.
For example Herb Goldman put Liston at number2,Richard O Brien ,Senior Editor of Sports Illustrated placed Liston at number3 , Alfie Hamer of Sportster has Liston at number3.Jim Jacobs had Liston in the top 4,Gerald Suster "Champions Of the Ring",has Liston in his top ten,as did Jerry Izenberg and Terry Leigh Lye. Bert Sugar is certainly famous if not particularly respected, he had Liston at no8 .Reg Gutteridge both famous and respected had Liston in his top ten, as did Harry Carpenter and the recently deceased Colin Hart.
Your points on the young, inexperienced Liston ,being thrown in with Summerlin and the 7th ranked Lhvy Marshall,are well taken,but we know they will be ignored,as the ability to perceive context does not figure in the make up of the poster you are debating and winning against.
What relevance demands for others posters lists has to any debate , as in a hostage for hostage deal, escapes me entirely! Then again we are looking for a logical thought process to argue against and that has never been forthcoming!
You are again correct when discussing who is considered the greater fighter.
The Ring 2017 had them as follows.
1.Ali
2.Louis
3.Johnson
4.Marciano.
5. Holmes.
6.Dempsey
7.Foreman
8. Frazier
9.Tyson
10.Liston

Wlad was no16 .
Vitali no 17.

i think that with vitali people think he was never really troubled in his career and always looked in control. that is why people rank him, but through injury he never really had those huge pay per view nights that create great fighters. i think we see him as unlucky to get injured but he never looked too troubled in the fights he did have. it makes some of us think he could beat any man in the ring such was his size and skills. when he retired in that fight he had dislocated his shoulder. it is ****** to say things like "going out on his shield and a quitter"
no one can fight with a dislocated shoulder it is silly to think any man can.
that is all. class dismissed!