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Sonny Liston one of the greatest

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  • #81
    Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post

    Yes. 100 percent. It was Walcott who messed up. Liston did what ALL fighter are supposed to do when they get knocked down. Assumed? Really? Lmao.

    My game? What game is that exactly?

    Saying Liston beat less formidable opponents is a reach. Liston is more highly regarded because he beat better opponents during his era.

    Are you asking how many lineal title fights, or how many ABC trinket fights. There is a difference.

    If you are sure Liston wins are better than VK's, I can not reason with you.

    Sure -- those sub 210 pound guys with glass jaws are all time stuff! Sonny is a fouling fighter, and a cheater. Low blows and putting stuff on his gloves. Five fights complained of burning eyes vs Liston. Hmmm... But he was also dominating vs. the mediocre top fighters he fought..


    Sure Liston losses are better than VK's two. Surely you jest!.

    Funny you did not reply on his record vs. ranked ring magazine fighters he beat and compare them to VK's? Why not? It is good data. Afraid to compare them to VK's? Yep I think so.

    Your game is to avoid answering some of my questions and to sometimes hide behind unknown facts

    Where is your list? I said I want to see it. Kindly reply to my questions.​

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    • #82
      Originally posted by Willow The Wisp View Post

      I think that I may have isolated your issue Doc. You refuse to reseach and qualify external input.

      Liston, Williams, Folley are three who would run through VK with relative ease; each in their own way.
      And if Vitali thought that Chris Byrd was somebody to quit against; I can imagine that he wouldn't even bother showing up against Eddie Machen.

      Open your mind a bit; you'll be better for it.
      It's worked for me. I never paint myself into a corner with my home grown ideas which are untenable. And I sure didn't just now.


      Runs through VK with relative ease you say? The glass jawed Williams, who lacks wins over ranked opponents? What does he have just one or two? Williams' record is very inflated. Yet he busted up and cut Sonny early, until his chin gave out.


      And the small no frills and no punch Folley? He would be lucky to win four rounds vs. VK as all of his opponents failed to do that! A Folley who lost 11 times, was KO'd 7 and drew 6 times walk through VK?


      Willow, you painted yourself into the loser's corner with your words. Sorry man.


      A healthy VK beats Bryd. But that is another thread.

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      • #83
        Originally posted by Dr Z View Post


        If you are sure Liston wins are better than VK's, I can not reason with you.

        Sure -- those sub 210 pound guys with glass jaws are all time stuff! Sonny is a fouling fighter, and a cheater. Low blows and putting stuff on his gloves. Five fights complained of burning eyes vs Liston. Hmmm... But he was also dominating vs. the mediocre top fighters he fought..


        Sure Liston losses are better than VK's two. Surely you jest!.

        Funny you did not reply on his record vs. ranked ring magazine fighters he beat and compare them to VK's? Why not? It is good data. Afraid to compare them to VK's? Yep I think so.

        Your game is to avoid answering some of my questions and to sometimes hide behind unknown facts

        Where is your list? I said I want to see it. Kindly reply to my questions.​
        You say: "Show me your list"

        You say: "Answer my questions"

        Then you say Jab: "Plays games"

        Not only do you play games but you want to set all the rules as well.

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        • #84
          Originally posted by QueensburyRules View Post

          - - Don't see tubby Lar fighting Liston or Frazier or Rocky.
          - - Just a reminder for short attention spans.

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          • #85
            Originally posted by Dr Z View Post


            If you are sure Liston wins are better than VK's, I can not reason with you.

            Sure -- those sub 210 pound guys with glass jaws are all time stuff! Sonny is a fouling fighter, and a cheater. Low blows and putting stuff on his gloves. Five fights complained of burning eyes vs Liston. Hmmm... But he was also dominating vs. the mediocre top fighters he fought..


            Sure Liston losses are better than VK's two. Surely you jest!.

            Funny you did not reply on his record vs. ranked ring magazine fighters he beat and compare them to VK's? Why not? It is good data. Afraid to compare them to VK's? Yep I think so.

            Your game is to avoid answering some of my questions and to sometimes hide behind unknown facts

            Where is your list? I said I want to see it. Kindly reply to my questions.​
            You can't reason because you're unreasonable. You want to compare Listons losses? Marty Marshall. Had his jaw broke and KEPT fighting anyway, then avenged that loss in a rematch. Vits quit against Byrd. No rematch. Liston got stretched in his second to last fight at AT LEAST 38 years old, probably older, but I have no proof of that. Vits got his face torn of by Lewis who was just shy of 38 and in his last fight. Vits never beat a lineal champion, Liston did. Vits not only didn't clean out the division, he let his brother fight the best fighters. Liston cleared out the division except for guys like Johansson who admitted they would cross the road if the saw Sonny coming.

            why do you need my list? You've seen where I tank Liston. My list has nothing to do with this thread, though I would say his ranking does.

            And who is hiding behind "unknown facts"? Would that be you calling Liston a cheater, yet with no tangible evidence.

            There is a reason not only people like myself and history rate Liston not only highly, but over Vits. If you were just a little more reasonable you might get it.
            Biledriver Biledriver likes this.

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            • #86
              Well if we start a thread "The Top Ten Greatest Enigmas in Boxing, I think we would all put Lewiston at the top of the list.

              I would love to know the whole truth about several others events as well. But Ali-Liston II would be my number one.

              Biledriver Biledriver likes this.

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              • #87
                Originally posted by Willie Pep 229 View Post
                Well if we start a thread "The Top Ten Greatest Enigmas in Boxing, I think we would all put Lewiston at the top of the list.

                I would love to know the whole truth about several others events as well. But Ali-Liston II would be my number one.
                An enigma i agree with. Kind of like Tunney-Dempsey 2. But no proof of some Machiavellian plot in either case.

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                • #88
                  Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post

                  You can't reason because you're unreasonable. You want to compare Listons losses? Marty Marshall. Had his jaw broke and KEPT fighting anyway, then avenged that loss in a rematch. Vits quit against Byrd. No rematch. Liston got stretched in his second to last fight at AT LEAST 38 years old, probably older, but I have no proof of that. Vits got his face torn of by Lewis who was just shy of 38 and in his last fight. Vits never beat a lineal champion, Liston did. Vits not only didn't clean out the division, he let his brother fight the best fighters. Liston cleared out the division except for guys like Johansson who admitted they would cross the road if the saw Sonny coming.

                  why do you need my list? You've seen where I tank Liston. My list has nothing to do with this thread, though I would say his ranking does.

                  And who is hiding behind "unknown facts"? Would that be you calling Liston a cheater, yet with no tangible evidence.

                  There is a reason not only people like myself and history rate Liston not only highly, but over Vits. If you were just a little more reasonable you might get it.



                  Liston lost to lesser fighters while Vitali was only defeated by men who were ranked #1 by ring magazine. See the difference?!

                  Byrd won due to Vital's torn shoulder. That it. You agree that a healthy Vitali would beat him. So what is your point?

                  It might shock you to learn that Listion is not rated highly as you think by 2000- 1960's in an all time sense . No one famous ranks him #6 You stand alone there cowboy.

                  Now may I see your list? I will PM you 10 not so easy ratings of authors and historians, and magners. Do we have a deal?


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                  • #89
                    Originally posted by Dr Z View Post




                    Liston lost to lesser fighters while Vitali was only defeated by men who were ranked #1 by ring magazine. See the difference?!

                    Byrd won due to Vital's torn shoulder. That it. You agree that a healthy Vitali would beat him. So what is your point?

                    It might shock you to learn that Listion is not rated highly as you think by 2000- 1960's in an all time sense . No one famous ranks him #6 You stand alone there cowboy.

                    Now may I see your list? I will PM you 10 not so easy ratings of authors and historians, and magners. Do we have a deal?

                    Byrd was not ranked number one and came to Germany on 10 days notice. The difference is Liston rematched and beat Marshall. You can say Byrd only won due to injury, but the fight was very close and Vits never rematched to avenge that loss. So what's your point.

                    You should read more carefully. I said 8th, not 6th. And i can already tell you at least two that do without even looking. For a fact i can tell you Matt McGrain does, as does the IBRO.

                    Im curious why you need my list? What does it have to do with the topic at hand? And if you're so sure of yourself, why don't you post them here. I know one thing, no historian, manager nor author ranks Vits above Liston. Not anyone worth they're salt. So getting back to my point....why do you think so highly of Vits and so little of Liston when Liston accomplished more?
                    Biledriver Biledriver likes this.

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                    • #90
                      Originally posted by Dr Z View Post




                      Liston lost to lesser fighters while Vitali was only defeated by men who were ranked #1 by ring magazine. See the difference?!

                      Byrd won due to Vital's torn shoulder. That it. You agree that a healthy Vitali would beat him. So what is your point?

                      It might shock you to learn that Listion is not rated highly as you think by 2000- 1960's in an all time sense . No one famous ranks him #6 You stand alone there cowboy.

                      Now may I see your list? I will PM you 10 not so easy ratings of authors and historians, and magners. Do we have a deal?

                      I have Liston number 4 of all time
                      Anomalocaris Anomalocaris likes this.

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