Sonny Liston one of the greatest

[Willie Pep 229]

Come on. It is assumed the 2nd Ali fight was a tank job by the mob controlled Liston. You don't believe it was on the level,do you? Please answer yes or no. I know how you game works. And it does not work the way you want it when one questions how you play it.

Liston beat less formidable fighters compared to VK and was not poleaxed down for 60 seconds as Liston was vs a merley good fighter, nor did he lose another sub 200 pounder who was unranked. How many title fights did Liston win again? What is his record vs ring ranked opponents again? 5 opponents including Ali complained of burning eyes vs Liston. He was a fouler as stated.

That's not how history works. If you think you can 'yes' and 'no' the past you are deluding yourself.

One can think without being certain.

Beside who are you to decide the 'rules of answering.'

[Willow The Wisp]

Also bigger hands, skull, probably thicker bone structure overall. But probably most importantly Liston is one of the strongest HW grapplers ever in boxing while Tyson one of the weakest. It would be man against boy in there if they were fighting in-close.

This is all very true.

[Willow The Wisp]

Liston beat less formidable fighters compared to VK and was not poleaxed down for 60 seconds as Liston was vs a merley good fighter, nor did he lose another sub 200 pounder who was unranked. How many title fights did Liston win again? What is his record vs ring ranked opponents again? 5 opponents including Ali complained of burning eyes vs Liston. He was a fouler as stated.

I think that I may have isolated your issue Doc. You refuse to reseach and qualify external input.

Liston, Williams, Folley are three who would run through VK with relative ease; each in their own way.
And if Vitali thought that Chris Byrd was somebody to quit against; I can imagine that he wouldn't even bother showing up against Eddie Machen.

Open your mind a bit; you'll be better for it.
It's worked for me. I never paint myself into a corner with my home grown ideas which are untenable. And I sure didn't just now.

[Dr Z]

Yes. 100 percent. It was Walcott who messed up. Liston did what ALL fighter are supposed to do when they get knocked down. Assumed? Really? Lmao.

My game? What game is that exactly?

Saying Liston beat less formidable opponents is a reach. Liston is more highly regarded because he beat better opponents during his era.

Are you asking how many lineal title fights, or how many ABC trinket fights. There is a difference.

If you are sure Liston wins are better than VK's, I can not reason with you.

Sure -- those sub 210 pound guys with glass jaws are all time stuff! Sonny is a fouling fighter, and a cheater. Low blows and putting stuff on his gloves. Five fights complained of burning eyes vs Liston. Hmmm... But he was also dominating vs. the mediocre top fighters he fought..


Sure Liston losses are better than VK's two. Surely you jest!.

Funny you did not reply on his record vs. ranked ring magazine fighters he beat and compare them to VK's? Why not? It is good data. Afraid to compare them to VK's? Yep I think so.

Your game is to avoid answering some of my questions and to sometimes hide behind unknown facts

Where is your list? I said I want to see it. Kindly reply to my questions.

[Dr Z]

I think that I may have isolated your issue Doc. You refuse to reseach and qualify external input.

Liston, Williams, Folley are three who would run through VK with relative ease; each in their own way.
And if Vitali thought that Chris Byrd was somebody to quit against; I can imagine that he wouldn't even bother showing up against Eddie Machen.

Open your mind a bit; you'll be better for it.
It's worked for me. I never paint myself into a corner with my home grown ideas which are untenable. And I sure didn't just now.

Runs through VK with relative ease you say? The glass jawed Williams, who lacks wins over ranked opponents? What does he have just one or two? Williams' record is very inflated. Yet he busted up and cut Sonny early, until his chin gave out.


And the small no frills and no punch Folley? He would be lucky to win four rounds vs. VK as all of his opponents failed to do that! A Folley who lost 11 times, was KO'd 7 and drew 6 times walk through VK?


Willow, you painted yourself into the loser's corner with your words. Sorry man.


A healthy VK beats Bryd. But that is another thread.

[Willie Pep 229]

If you are sure Liston wins are better than VK's, I can not reason with you.

Sure -- those sub 210 pound guys with glass jaws are all time stuff! Sonny is a fouling fighter, and a cheater. Low blows and putting stuff on his gloves. Five fights complained of burning eyes vs Liston. Hmmm... But he was also dominating vs. the mediocre top fighters he fought..


Sure Liston losses are better than VK's two. Surely you jest!.

Funny you did not reply on his record vs. ranked ring magazine fighters he beat and compare them to VK's? Why not? It is good data. Afraid to compare them to VK's? Yep I think so.

Your game is to avoid answering some of my questions and to sometimes hide behind unknown facts

Where is your list? I said I want to see it. Kindly reply to my questions.

You say: "Show me your list"

You say: "Answer my questions"

Then you say Jab: "Plays games"

Not only do you play games but you want to set all the rules as well.

[QueensburyRules]

- - Don't see tubby Lar fighting Liston or Frazier or Rocky.

- - Just a reminder for short attention spans.

[Biledriver]

Yes. 100 percent. It was Walcott who messed up. Liston did what ALL fighter are supposed to do when they get knocked down. Assumed? Really? Lmao.

My game? What game is that exactly?

Saying Liston beat less formidable opponents is a reach. Liston is more highly regarded because he beat better opponents during his era.

Are you asking how many lineal title fights, or how many ABC trinket fights. There is a difference.

Liston got up when Ali stopped standing over him, and the fight continued. Then Nat Fleischer interfered in the bout and got Walcott to stop the fight.

[JAB5239]

If you are sure Liston wins are better than VK's, I can not reason with you.

Sure -- those sub 210 pound guys with glass jaws are all time stuff! Sonny is a fouling fighter, and a cheater. Low blows and putting stuff on his gloves. Five fights complained of burning eyes vs Liston. Hmmm... But he was also dominating vs. the mediocre top fighters he fought..


Sure Liston losses are better than VK's two. Surely you jest!.

Funny you did not reply on his record vs. ranked ring magazine fighters he beat and compare them to VK's? Why not? It is good data. Afraid to compare them to VK's? Yep I think so.

Your game is to avoid answering some of my questions and to sometimes hide behind unknown facts

Where is your list? I said I want to see it. Kindly reply to my questions.

You can't reason because you're unreasonable. You want to compare Listons losses? Marty Marshall. Had his jaw broke and KEPT fighting anyway, then avenged that loss in a rematch. Vits quit against Byrd. No rematch. Liston got stretched in his second to last fight at AT LEAST 38 years old, probably older, but I have no proof of that. Vits got his face torn of by Lewis who was just shy of 38 and in his last fight. Vits never beat a lineal champion, Liston did. Vits not only didn't clean out the division, he let his brother fight the best fighters. Liston cleared out the division except for guys like Johansson who admitted they would cross the road if the saw Sonny coming.

why do you need my list? You've seen where I tank Liston. My list has nothing to do with this thread, though I would say his ranking does.

And who is hiding behind "unknown facts"? Would that be you calling Liston a cheater, yet with no tangible evidence.

There is a reason not only people like myself and history rate Liston not only highly, but over Vits. If you were just a little more reasonable you might get it.

[Willie Pep 229]

Well if we start a thread "The Top Ten Greatest Enigmas in Boxing, I think we would all put Lewiston at the top of the list.

I would love to know the whole truth about several others events as well. But Ali-Liston II would be my number one.