Sonny Liston one of the greatest

[max baer]

Cleveland Williams took the same punch and the results were what one would expect, a flash KD. Which Williams got off the canvas from quickly. (Round 3)

Just as Liston first did, but then Liston chose to lay back down again.

The punch was real and the KD was real, the Williams fight shows us that, but it should have only resulted in a flash KD, not a KO.

Liston chose to quit.

i agree willy and that is why liston is such a tragic person. He, from what I recall watching a doc about ali, felt that the nation of islam making death threats and shady mob betting and threats made liston feel "this is all not worth it i just wanna be left alone". The 60's in america, as we all know, was dangerous for people who were political and liston felt beaten down by it all. To me he always had a face that looked like he was tired of life and sad. They said that in las vegas once a top mafia guy said to liston "you are just a n****a and I don't care about your world champion you are just a n***a to me and if you don't do what I say I'll kill you" or words to that effect.
I feel liston felt just worn down by life and all the tragedy he experienced and just wanted to die to be released from it all. if he could have only known how many people around the world would marvel at his boxing as the years went by he could have had a happier retirement.

[MikeyMike100]

He quit in his biggest fights. Dont know how something like that can be looked over. Hes somewhere in the top 20

[BKM-]

i agree willy and that is why liston is such a tragic person. He, from what I recall watching a doc about ali, felt that the nation of islam making death threats and shady mob betting and threats made liston feel "this is all not worth it i just wanna be left alone". The 60's in america, as we all know, was dangerous for people who were political and liston felt beaten down by it all. To me he always had a face that looked like he was tired of life and sad. They said that in las vegas once a top mafia guy said to liston "you are just a n****a and I don't care about your world champion you are just a n***a to me and if you don't do what I say I'll kill you" or words to that effect.
I feel liston felt just worn down by life and all the tragedy he experienced and just wanted to die to be released from it all. if he could have only known how many people around the world would marvel at his boxing as the years went by he could have had a happier retirement.

Liston wasn't quite a victim, he chose to do some bad things in his life.

But he did have it rough. Considering his childhood and then his career during the whole civil rights issues of his time, to his constant problems with the police, then of cource the mob, and then there's the nation of islam later too.

Sharks around him just wouldn't leave it alone.

[Willie Pep 229]

i agree willy and that is why liston is such a tragic person. He, from what I recall watching a doc about ali, felt that the nation of islam making death threats and shady mob betting and threats made liston feel "this is all not worth it i just wanna be left alone". The 60's in america, as we all know, was dangerous for people who were political and liston felt beaten down by it all. To me he always had a face that looked like he was tired of life and sad. They said that in las vegas once a top mafia guy said to liston "you are just a n****a and I don't care about your world champion you are just a n***a to me and if you don't do what I say I'll kill you" or words to that effect.
I feel liston felt just worn down by life and all the tragedy he experienced and just wanted to die to be released from it all. if he could have only known how many people around the world would marvel at his boxing as the years went by he could have had a happier retirement.

I agree completely with your take on Liston's dissatisfaction with life but I don't think he offed himself with drugs.

I adhere to the 'mob' theory. Liston was making a move on another loan sharks territory.

The scene was staged and a hot shot was given.

The gangsters involved were low level, but Liston was not actually a connected man and so permission wasn't needed.

The 'mob' theory suggests that Liston thought he was protected, but he was just being used and when he made an unwarranted move he got attacked, and there was no protection; no retaliation on his behalf.

[JAB5239]

Clay is N.1 or. 2 heavyweight ever. That is not debatable.

But Liston is top 10....based on what? His resume is very thin.

Why should I belive Liston was so good?

Starting with the fact he cleaned out the division, and who he didn't fight avoided him like the plagued. If that's not enough, Ali' himself called Liston great. His skills transfer on film and are easily discernable.

[max baer]

I agree completely with your take on Liston's dissatisfaction with life but I don't think he offed himself with drugs.

I adhere to the 'mob' theory. Liston was making a move on another loan sharks territory.

The scene was staged and a hot shot was given.

The gangsters involved were low level, but Liston was not actually a connected man and so permission wasn't needed.

The 'mob' theory suggests that Liston thought he was protected, but he was just being used and when he made an unwarranted move he got attacked, and there was no protection; no retaliation on his behalf.

I do too. You are spot on willie. He was given a hot shot. I remember hearing that now you mention it.
Mike Tyson was going the same way (suicidal and unhappy) after he lost his baby daughter but someone helped him. He became happy in life but he was close to ending it like sonny at one stage.
Sonny may well have been killed if it wasn't suicide.
One thing I wanted to add was that iron mike had that fear factor like sonny in the late eighties I remember well how in awe we all were at how muscled he was at such a young age and how devastating he was. I am so glad he hung on in there and did his one man show and autobiography and he has a wonderful wife who has been so good for him after so many money grabbing hussies.

[The D3vil]

He quit in his biggest fights. Dont know how something like that can be looked over. Hes somewhere in the top 20

He arguably quit in ONE fight when he was old as hell.

Duran quit in "No Mas" & he's considered top 5-10 on most people all-time P4P lists

- - Joe BTFO Ali first go round and he'd do the same to Sonny.

As mentioned, Sonny lucked into a weak era and still couldn't dominate though he beats all of Floyd's title defenses. I like Sonny who made something of himself, but he was cursed with the sins of a terrible father and lucky to have been a momma's boy in a weak era.

Prime Liston fought nothing like Ali did.

Foreman said Liston was the strongest man he ever was in a ring with & Foreman's known as the strongest man in the history of the sport.

His claim to fame is being Clay`s stepping stone to the belt.

If he is ATG, than Usyk is the best heavyweight ever.

This antient fighters are often overrated for some crazy reasons.

That's because he was robbed of opportunities for big fights like a lot of Black fighters in his day.

Hell, it still happens,

Terence Crawford got his first big fight at what, 36 because Al Haymon & them froze him out?

Well, the mob & other folks did that to Sonny.

Even the NAACP told Floyd Patterson he shouldn't give Liston a chance because he was a "bad look" for Black Americans.

Props to Floyd P for being a real man, though.

- - In 1967 Ali turned down Wilt Chamberlain's agreed up Contract that Cosell had set up as a televised signing. It was embarrassing seeing how quickly Wilt turned Ali into just another confused kid.

Instead he fought ancient Zora Folley who gave him all Ali could handle.

So, the heavyweight champion of the world is supposed to fight a basketball player, for what reason?

If Wilt wanted to fight HW champion, he should've became a fighter & earned a shot.

[max baer]

He arguably quit in ONE fight when he was old as hell.

Duran quit in "No Mas" & he's considered top 5-10 on most people all-time P4P lists



Prime Liston fought nothing like Ali did.

Foreman said Liston was the strongest man he ever was in a ring with & Foreman's known as the strongest man in the history of the sport.



That's because he was robbed of opportunities for big fights like a lot of Black fighters in his day.

Hell, it still happens,

Terence Crawford got his first big fight at what, 36 because Al Haymon & them froze him out?

Well, the mob & other folks did that to Sonny.

Even the NAACP told Floyd Patterson he shouldn't give Liston a chance because he was a "bad look" for Black Americans.

Props to Floyd P for being a real man, though.



So, the heavyweight champion of the world is supposed to fight a basketball player, for what reason?

If Wilt wanted to fight HW champion, he should've became a fighter & earned a shot.

Remember ali fought that kick boxer i think in japan and all that the kick boxer did was lie on the floor kicking ali's legs and it was rubbish for the fans. I think you are right ali could've easily beaten the basketball player with kidney punches (although ali seemingly only ever threw headshots I can't recall him ever throwing a body shot.)
But just been very tall wouldn't trouble a pro boxer. I saw a few months ago carl froch say he could beat jake paul easily because he doesn't know how to box. Queeny often talks rubbish but he is right some of the time!!

[solidman]

Liston would have kod Tyson too. No question.

[JAB5239]

Liston would have kod Tyson too. No question.

Not sure I agree. Fighters need to be rated in their own time. Head to head is a fantasy. I don't discount the opinion Liston would stop Tyson, but I can't whole heartedly buy into it either. At he end of the day I think Liston WOULD intimate Tyson...but Mike is bigger, faster and at his best relentless. Overall LIston for me rates higher and or pretty close all time. Not even Tyson scared contenders the way Liston did.