Tunney & Louis

[Mr Mitts]

Louis may be agile but that hardly means he has fast feet. He does not have fast feet that I have ever seen. Agile is nowhere in the definition of speed. I have made numerous challenges for anyone to show me Joe's fast feet. There is an excellent reason they haven't--they couldn't find any footage of these mythical feet. I have looked myself. Louis's fast feet only exist in the minds of his adorers. Otherwise someone would have stepped in and shown the proof. There was not any proof to be found.

Am I wrong? Show it then. Louis's feet may have been educated but they were certainly not fast. Blackburn could educate them in a limited scope but was unable to wave a magic wand and make them fast.

Louis had no ability to adjust his style within a fight that I have ever seen. He made no adjustments in Conn 1 that I can discern, but slogged along as usual. Conn got a little tired but even more ambitious and stupid, or the great Louis was gone right there from a LHW. Conn was nowhere near as good or disciplined as Tunney in every department. Conn stopped using his leg speed and tried to mix it up more. Louis is not the chest or shoulders to lay your head on while both his arms are free. Billy made this mistake throughout the fight. He was no Tunney. Billy obviously a light puncher, but Tunney's power was quite decent.

I am not arguing Louis was not a great fighter, I am challenging someone to show me those fast feet. If fast feet were ever employable it would have been against Conn 1. Mr Apples says something about him hiding his foot speed. Oh, please no, God. I might choke on that. Joe's foot speed was normal, in little mincing steps. The problem with hiding his foot speed is that he never brought the fast feet out of his garage as far as I can find. There is a good reason for that too--Joe did not have a garage, what he had is what you saw.

Joe's combination punching is as good as I have seen close in. That is exactly where Tunney would not allow him to punch, while Conn was often content to have his own arms free with his head on Joe's chest or shoulders. Tunney was too good to make that mistake--for Tunney actually did have a quick mind to go with his quick feet, whereas Conn apparently had a thick mind. I would literally bet my house that Tunney or Ali would whip him handily, with the latter destroying him. Sorry, boys.

[billeau2]

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Would have been a good fight.

Two great fighters. Top five heavyweight and light heavyweight for Tunney. This is one of those fights where style looms large. I honestly cannot see a scenario where Louis beats Tunney. Tunney was very hard to knock out.

[BKM-]

Louis may be agile but that hardly means he has fast feet. He does not have fast feet that I have ever seen. Agile is nowhere in the definition of speed. I have made numerous challenges for anyone to show me Joe's fast feet. There is an excellent reason they haven't--they couldn't find any footage of these mythical feet. I have looked myself. Louis's fast feet only exist in the minds of his adorers. Otherwise someone would have stepped in and shown the proof. There was not any proof to be found.

Am I wrong? Show it then. Louis's feet may have been educated but they were certainly not fast. Blackburn could educate them in a limited scope but was unable to wave a magic wand and make them fast.

Louis had no ability to adjust his style within a fight that I have ever seen. He made no adjustments in Conn 1 that I can discern, but slogged along as usual. Conn got a little tired but even more ambitious and stupid, or the great Louis was gone right there from a LHW. Conn was nowhere near as good or disciplined as Tunney in every department. Conn stopped using his leg speed and tried to mix it up more. Louis is not the chest or shoulders to lay your head on while both his arms are free. Billy made this mistake throughout the fight. He was no Tunney. Billy obviously a light puncher, but Tunney's power was quite decent.

I am not arguing Louis was not a great fighter, I am challenging someone to show me those fast feet. If fast feet were ever employable it would have been against Conn 1. Mr Apples says something about him hiding his foot speed. Oh, please no, God. I might choke on that. Joe's foot speed was normal, in little mincing steps. The problem with hiding his foot speed is that he never brought the fast feet out of his garage as far as I can find. There is a good reason for that too--Joe did not have a garage, what he had is what you saw.

Joe's combination punching is as good as I have seen close in. That is exactly where Tunney would not allow him to punch, while Conn was often content to have his own arms free with his head on Joe's chest or shoulders. Tunney was too good to make that mistake--for Tunney actually did have a quick mind to go with his quick feet, whereas Conn apparently had a thick mind. I would literally bet my house that Tunney or Ali would whip him handily, with the latter destroying him. Sorry, boys.

Solid post. I have said this about Louis for years, it's just not a weakness his fans are very willing to confront, same with his chin.

As you said his combination punching was out of this world, and that's funny enough how his cement feet became an advantage in atleast one way. He planted them firmly and it gave him a strong base to unleash his powerful combinations. Extremely effective against most opponents but would face issues against fellas who gave him more angles and movement.

[Mr Mitts]

Solid post. I have said this about Louis for years, it's just not a weakness his fans are very willing to confront, same with his chin.

As you said his combination punching was out of this world, and that's funny enough how his cement feet became an advantage in atleast one way. He planted them firmly and it gave him a strong base to unleash his powerful combinations. Extremely effective against most opponents but would face issues against fellas who gave him more angles and movement.

In the meantime we will sit and wait for the proofs of Louis's fast legs to start pouring in, eh?

I never said his feet were not educated. He had a solid 10th grade education in feet, but Tunney had a Doctorate in mobility. When another man's style and strategy expertly exploit your few weaknesses and conscientiously does not allow you to exploit his, you are usually going to lose. This is exactly how I would expect Tunney to proceed.

[Bronson66]

[QUOTE=billeau2;n32405604]

Two great fighters. Top five heavyweight and light heavyweight for Tunney. This is one of those fights where style looms large. I honestly cannot see a scenario where Louis beats Tunney. Tunney was very hard to knock out.[/QUOTE]

I think the problem with the underlined B is,how many punchers did Tunney face,especially heavyweight punchers?

[Bronson66]

Louis may be agile but that hardly means he has fast feet. He does not have fast feet that I have ever seen. Agile is nowhere in the definition of speed. I have made numerous challenges for anyone to show me Joe's fast feet. There is an excellent reason they haven't--they couldn't find any footage of these mythical feet. I have looked myself. Louis's fast feet only exist in the minds of his adorers. Otherwise someone would have stepped in and shown the proof. There was not any proof to be found.

Am I wrong? Show it then. Louis's feet may have been educated but they were certainly not fast. Blackburn could educate them in a limited scope but was unable to wave a magic wand and make them fast.

Louis had no ability to adjust his style within a fight that I have ever seen. He made no adjustments in Conn 1 that I can discern, but slogged along as usual. Conn got a little tired but even more ambitious and stupid, or the great Louis was gone right there from a LHW. Conn was nowhere near as good or disciplined as Tunney in every department. Conn stopped using his leg speed and tried to mix it up more. Louis is not the chest or shoulders to lay your head on while both his arms are free. Billy made this mistake throughout the fight. He was no Tunney. Billy obviously a light puncher, but Tunney's power was quite decent.

I am not arguing Louis was not a great fighter, I am challenging someone to show me those fast feet. If fast feet were ever employable it would have been against Conn 1. Mr Apples says something about him hiding his foot speed. Oh, please no, God. I might choke on that. Joe's foot speed was normal, in little mincing steps. The problem with hiding his foot speed is that he never brought the fast feet out of his garage as far as I can find. There is a good reason for that too--Joe did not have a garage, what he had is what you saw.

Joe's combination punching is as good as I have seen close in. That is exactly where Tunney would not allow him to punch, while Conn was often content to have his own arms free with his head on Joe's chest or shoulders. Tunney was too good to make that mistake--for Tunney actually did have a quick mind to go with his quick feet, whereas Conn apparently had a thick mind. I would literally bet my house that Tunney or Ali would whip him handily, with the latter destroying him. Sorry, boys.

I agree Louis did not have "fast feet" ,his footwork was,like his punches economical. Louis was not generally adaptable during a fight,but look out in the rematch!

[them_apples]

Louis may be agile but that hardly means he has fast feet. He does not have fast feet that I have ever seen. Agile is nowhere in the definition of speed. I have made numerous challenges for anyone to show me Joe's fast feet. There is an excellent reason they haven't--they couldn't find any footage of these mythical feet. I have looked myself. Louis's fast feet only exist in the minds of his adorers. Otherwise someone would have stepped in and shown the proof. There was not any proof to be found.

Am I wrong? Show it then. Louis's feet may have been educated but they were certainly not fast. Blackburn could educate them in a limited scope but was unable to wave a magic wand and make them fast.

Louis had no ability to adjust his style within a fight that I have ever seen. He made no adjustments in Conn 1 that I can discern, but slogged along as usual. Conn got a little tired but even more ambitious and stupid, or the great Louis was gone right there from a LHW. Conn was nowhere near as good or disciplined as Tunney in every department. Conn stopped using his leg speed and tried to mix it up more. Louis is not the chest or shoulders to lay your head on while both his arms are free. Billy made this mistake throughout the fight. He was no Tunney. Billy obviously a light puncher, but Tunney's power was quite decent.

I am not arguing Louis was not a great fighter, I am challenging someone to show me those fast feet. If fast feet were ever employable it would have been against Conn 1. Mr Apples says something about him hiding his foot speed. Oh, please no, God. I might choke on that. Joe's foot speed was normal, in little mincing steps. The problem with hiding his foot speed is that he never brought the fast feet out of his garage as far as I can find. There is a good reason for that too--Joe did not have a garage, what he had is what you saw.

Joe's combination punching is as good as I have seen close in. That is exactly where Tunney would not allow him to punch, while Conn was often content to have his own arms free with his head on Joe's chest or shoulders. Tunney was too good to make that mistake--for Tunney actually did have a quick mind to go with his quick feet, whereas Conn apparently had a thick mind. I would literally bet my house that Tunney or Ali would whip him handily, with the latter destroying him. Sorry, boys.

Just watch the background. Louis is ALWAYS in position. This is because he has fast feet. Hes tricking you and hes tricking the guy in front of him. Watch where he goes.

you see his build, hes built like Ali. Lean up top and strong powerful legs

he keeps his feet close to the ground and takes short quick steps to keep his balance and hide any obvious jerky movements that would give himself away

this is the mastery of blackburns footwork

this how Louis would land with such accuracy and leverage. He could get himself into position

you think he has slow feet because he is hiding everything he does and this takes practice

[them_apples]

I agree Louis did not have "fast feet" ,his footwork was,like his punches economical. Louis was not generally adaptable during a fight,but look out in the rematch!

Wrong sorry. Just watch closer and humble yourself

not trying to start a flame war

bur you can do better

[them_apples]

No, it's justice. Upholding the system while claiming no personal responsibility has been the calling card of the racist since the day they lost their race war.

Andrew Jackson claimed he never agreed with slavery he only did it because he thought that's what God wanted. Not a racist? Just a Christian man in a time when he could be confused? Tell that to the black men he whipped, the children he sent away, and the women he ****d. Calling Card since they lost the civil war.
​

They're not racist champions they just simply are from a racist time? Tell that to the black men barred from greatness for a hundred years.


Seems like no matter how the message is delivered people will avoid the truth simply because the transitive factor means some hero of yours takes some level of legacy hit.


The KKK always wore hoods and always hide their identity from a public that was so racist the champion had to hide his egalitarian beliefs? That makes sense to you?


Every slave owner ever could claim they're not racist they're just part of a society.


Only the men who actually lived an egalitarian life should be afforded that honor. Every man too much of a pus sy to stand up to the system is guilty of being too much of a pus sy to stand up to the system. This includes our favorite champions pre-colorline and there is nothing anyone can do about it.


Benjamin Lay exists about 200 years prior to any man mentioned in this thread. He wasn't a hard man, he wasn't a tough guy, he was a dwarf with all the illness that comes with dwarfism in the early 18th century. He was not too much of a pus sy to accost slave owners, wife beaters, or animal abusers. But big badass Dempsey can't be held to wee little Benjamin's standard though?


Hard no brah. It'll be me reminding you these ****s were racists.

this post could run in so many different directions

like the civil war actually being about stopping southern plantation owners from a secession and selling their resources to britain instead of the north which was a manufacturing hub more than anything.

they used the anti slavery as a casus belli to start a war with the plantation owners of the south. And guess what - all
the blacks that fled the south had one job waiting for them across the border - the military and straight to the front lines. The north had plenty of slave owners all the same and even got compensated by the government for them to sing the song they all wanted to hear.

most of the things you are parotting is just there to light a fire under certain peoples asses.

but whats funny is you ask people to be a becon of light in the most testing of times but won’t ever do something like this yourself. Nobody wants to be lynched - white or black. And to this day its rare anybody will stand for anything. Nobody wants to be outnumbered and humilated on the big stage.

freedom of conscience doesn’t exsist. Its a buzzword. We are always coerced to think and feel a certain way. And history will laugh at us all the same. We are no better today than we were yesterday.

the best thing you can do is drop the racism and judge a fellow man as an individual and stop letting the social sciences drag you astray

[Dr Z]

But we have hashed this out already.

You can't really find black opponents who can claim they were grossly overlooked, or ducked by Louis.

Louis had five White HW Champions to KO, he did (5-1) in six fights. My God, what's a 'color boy to do.'

The money backers where not big on black-black fights, the color line still dominated the South and West. Even with Louis's rise in 1933, was still hard in the 1930s.

Before the Louis-Baer fight, the announcer lectured the audience on racism, for a solid five minutes. Lots of 'may the best man win' and 'clean sport' pleases! were shoveled at the audience.

Unnecessarily I might add. You can hear on the radio broadcast that the audience was all in. But the week's leadup to the fight, in the newspapers, had not been.

If it was racism it was systemic; it showed at the gate more than in the public eye.

It was Louis following the money.

Look at the gates! This is false statement. Louis made one of his highest purse vs. Walcott. Still think people would not pay to see black on black heavyweight fights.. People will pay to see a good fight, not a mis match like Joe Louis is John Henry Lewis.


Who Louis did not face was significant and these men were African American.


I’m thinking of Lem Franklin, Harry Bobo, Turkey Thompson, Lee Q. Murray, Elmer Ray, Curtis Sheppard, and Jack Trammell, who spent much of their careers in a pugilistic version of Six Degrees of Separation.

Franklin, who fought from 1937 to 1944 (31-13-1, 28 KOs), beat Sheppard, as well as Lee Savold, Abe Simon, Willie Reddish, and Jimmy Bivins.

Bobo, a pro from ‘39 to ‘44 (36-9, 24 KOs), took out Franklin, not to mention Wild Bill Boyd and Lee Savold.

Thompson fought from ‘38 to ‘52 (54-15-2, 39 KOs), beating Ray and Murray, as well as Johnny “Bandit” Romero (knocking him out on three separate occasions), Teddy Yarosz, Pat Valentino, Gus Dorazio, Arturo Godoy, and Willie Bean.

As for Murray, who also fought from ‘38 to ‘52 (59-17-3, 42 KOs), he took out Sheppard, Bobo, and Thompson, in addition to Ted Lowry and Jimmy Bivins.

Ray, a pro from ‘35 to ‘49 (85-17-5, 63 KOs), didn’t beat any of his six compadres, he did emerge victorious over Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles. And let’s not forget his nine bouts with the much-avoided and never-stopped, over 17 years and 101 fights, Obie Walker, winning four, losing three, and drawing two. Walker was the second-to-last World Colored Heavyweight Champion, a title rendered defunct by Joe Louis’ reign.

Sheppard fought from ‘38 to ‘49 (52-33, 33 KOs), beating Murray, as well as Unknown Winston, Joey Maxim, Gus Dorazio, and Johnny Shkor.

Trammell fought from ‘31 to ‘46 (50-12-2, 30 KOs). He, too, never got to face Louis.


These six men deseved a title shot...but Louis choose bum of the month types.

As such he drew the color line.