Why not Holmes over Ali?

[Dr. Z]

its reasonable for anyone to say there isn't a hairs breath between Ali and Holmes for talent ,but not for the reasons quoted,simply because they are false

Ali beat over 30 Ring ranked contenders and champions that's over twice as many as Holmes.
Strike One!

Ali was only floored by 1 non Ring top ten ranked fighter Sonny Banks . Cooper was no 10.Wepner ,[ if anyone is desperate enough to count that,] was no9 Frazier was Champ. Holmes was floored by unranked Kevin Isaac.
StrikeTwo!

Holmes did not have a good left hook.Ali floored and ko'd iron chinned Bonavena with left hooks.
Strike Three!

Holmes had major issues with Carl Williams jab and Ken Norton's jab. Newsflash everyone has issues with great jabbers! Strike Four!

Holmes was not sacked by Ali ,he and his then manager decided it was time to try and make there way and establish Larry in the division and left voluntarily.Holmes has spoken about this on video several times.
Strike Five!

Holmes had a slightly better chin? Did he? Was it tested against Foreman,Lyle, Frazier,Liston? Shavers dropped a prime Holmes,he couldn't drop a past prime Ali.
Strike Six!
You have a well established reputation for knocking Ali and this opening salvo on your return is no different to the many,many others, full of false claims you eagerly supply the forum with.
The problem is after being corrected you wait a suitable interlude and then compulsively repeat them again,so no,you don't learn,not anything.
Not an au****ious return by you, but certainly a very predictable one!

Hi Ivich

[BKM-]

It can be pointed out that Holmes had a more well rounded offense, but that still doesn't mean he had better offense. Ali still did more damage, was far quicker, smarter, his footwork was a lot more effective as well.

Then we get to their defense and I would say Ali's footwork and upperbody movement makes Holmes look stiff in comparison.

Two things you have to keep in mind about this discussion:

1-Ali was the original. Plain and simple. Holmes pretty much took Ali's style and did it wonderfully but not as good as the original.
2-Ali's competition was absolutely superior. No HW has such a stacked resume, it's almost ridiculous the amount of top 10 ATG HW's he fought let alone HOF's. Somebody here said Holmes beat more top 10 ranked opponents. But those top 10 ranked opponents were not as good as the top 10 ranked fighters in Ali's era. In fact Holmes missed out on fighting some of the best fighters in his era whether it was his fault or not. Ali to his own detriment faced them all and left no questions unanswered in possibly the strongest era ever.

[Dr. Z]

It can be pointed out that Holmes had a more well rounded offense, but that still doesn't mean he had better offense. Ali still did more damage, was far quicker, smarter, his footwork was a lot more effective as well.

Then we get to their defense and I would say Ali's footwork and upperbody movement makes Holmes look stiff in comparison.

Two things you have to keep in mind about this discussion:

1-Ali was the original. Plain and simple. Holmes pretty much took Ali's style and did it wonderfully but not as good as the original.
2-Ali's competition was absolutely superior. No HW has such a stacked resume, it's almost ridiculous the amount of top 10 ATG HW's he fought let alone HOF's. Somebody here said Holmes beat more top 10 ranked opponents. But those top 10 ranked opponents were not as good as the top 10 ranked fighters in Ali's era. In fact Holmes missed out on fighting some of the best fighters in his era whether it was his fault or not. Ali to his own detriment faced them all and left no questions unanswered in possibly the strongest era ever.

Holmes only lost to champions after 48+ fights at age 35+ years and older. And father time. Ali lost to mere contenders and had ahem some help on the score cards. The question for you to ponder is this. What year would have Holmes bean Ali? A few years before 1980, I say.

[BKM-]

Holmes only lost to champions after 48+ fights at age 35+ years and older. And father time. Ali lost to mere contenders and had ahem some help on the score cards. The question for you to ponder is this. What year would have Holmes bean Ali? A few years before 1980, I say.

Like I said there is no comparison when it comes to their level of opposition. Ali went through 3 generations of shark tanks, facing and beating some of the best heavyweights ever. Holmes got a lot of talented guys who got into 80s drugs which ruined their healths and careers. How can you honestly go up against resume of Liston-Frazier-Norton-Foreman-Patterson-Lyle-Quarry-Young-Bonavena-Shavers-Chuvalo? On top of that, Holmes can hardly claim quantity either as Ali had 19 title defenses himself, only one less than Holmes.

Actually a past prime Ali did better against some of their common opponents. Shavers almost sent a prime Holmes into the shadow realm while he couldn't even deck Ali once. Ali managed to win back the title against a Spinks. Holmes got another shot but couldn't beat his Spinks.

What year would have Holmes bean Ali? A few years before 1980, I say.

Not trying to be a **** here but I didn't understand the question.

[Bronson66]

Read facing Ali, Cowboy

I have that book.its by Stephen Brunt.
At no time in the Book does Holmes say he was sacked,fired or made to leave Ali's camp.
This is what he says. In 1975 immediately following Ali's defence against Chuck Wepner,Holmes left the camp for good.

"At that point Ali couldn't handle me anymore.I was too fast.I knew every move he made.
Four years of boxing with him,I know him.When he spit,I knew he was getting ready to spit.
I knew him and I didn't want to go on being labelled as just a sparring partner.
I wanted to be a sparring partner to learn.And I did.
I learned with Joe Frazier.I learned with Earnie Shavers,I learned with a lot of heavyweight contenders.
But I wanted to get out on my own and make some money,not 500dollars a week." Larry Holmes Facing Ali page 287.
No mention whatsoever of Ali firing him, just confirmation that Homes and his manager Ernie Butler decided it was time for Larry to go out on his own and make a name for himself.
So in your first post back you posted a deliberate lie and several others that I highlighted

[Bronson66]

Holmes only lost to champions after 48+ fights at age 35+ years and older. And father time. Ali lost to mere contenders and had ahem some help on the score cards. The question for you to ponder is this. What year would have Holmes bean Ali? A few years before 1980, I say.

Let us,for the sake of argument say Holmes would have beaten Ali from1975 onwards.
What does this actually prove?

In1975 Ali was 33 years old and had lost 3 and a half years of his prime to exile.
Holmes was 26 years old and just coming into his prime.
The only question that is relevant and valid here is, prime for prime ,both at their best, who wins?

[Bronson66]

Hi Ivich

Not prepared to address my points? Why am I not surprised?

[billeau2]

It can be pointed out that Holmes had a more well rounded offense, but that still doesn't mean he had better offense. Ali still did more damage, was far quicker, smarter, his footwork was a lot more effective as well.

Then we get to their defense and I would say Ali's footwork and upperbody movement makes Holmes look stiff in comparison.

Two things you have to keep in mind about this discussion:

1-Ali was the original. Plain and simple. Holmes pretty much took Ali's style and did it wonderfully but not as good as the original.
2-Ali's competition was absolutely superior. No HW has such a stacked resume, it's almost ridiculous the amount of top 10 ATG HW's he fought let alone HOF's. Somebody here said Holmes beat more top 10 ranked opponents. But those top 10 ranked opponents were not as good as the top 10 ranked fighters in Ali's era. In fact Holmes missed out on fighting some of the best fighters in his era whether it was his fault or not. Ali to his own detriment faced them all and left no questions unanswered in possibly the strongest era ever.

Great post!!

[billeau2]

Jeez... Poor Mendoza comes back and simply wants to make the trivial point that Holmes might be better than Ali... and gets skinned alive! I mean surely if Mendoza mentions that Ali kicked someone out, it must be true... Who needs proof?

[billeau2]

Ali beat better fighters. He beat them past his best years... Without Ali is there a Holmes? Holmes was incredible but Ali set a very high bar. With Holmes? you can break his attributes down traditionally. Great jab, lateral movement, chin and could work in other shots with ease... With Ali? what punch did he throw well? what kind of jab did he favor? How fast were his feet? Point being, Ali broke a mold, one cannot really explain his success traditionally.

Ali made mistakes. Going straight back, being lethargic against guys he should have dominated... But at his best he was phenominal. Did Holmes belong in the same class? Hard to say... I don't think so, but some may well think so.