What evidence do we have that heavyweights were too small in the past to compete today? and what determines a fighters size?

[them_apples]

It’s actually unreal how just 10 lbs at heavyweight is the sole determining factor for how great a fighter is.

it doesn’t matter that they are named Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano. No, the only thing worth judging is the fact that they were too light.

I am not trying to be insulting here, but this is such a misguided view of boxing and I hope one day you will understand (those that need enlightenment).

I don‘t think the majority understand how great Marciano was.

[Slugfester]

The thing is, I could swear the first thing I noticed at heavyweight is a good smaller man tends to be better than a good big man - because heavyweights donât keep their agility and coordination as they grow. Itâs very rare to have a big man who can really carry his own weight. Foreman was an anomaly. Guys like Lewis, Cooney, Joshua they suffer from being heavier and all lost to smaller guys because of it. They are big, but slower and bigger targets and not as strong from a p4p standpoint.

when people start getting bigger, after a certain point itâs mostly just height they are gaining. They donât always have bigger or more robust structure.

You can see this in a guy like Thomas Hearns, since we saw him campaign at so many weight classes. While his natural frame is 147 lbs, when he put on weight he was a cruiserweight.

what a guy like ivich thinks is that once Hearns weighs 190 heâs as thoroughbred as a guy who cut 30 lbs and shredded down to 190, and whome has a skull twice as big among other things.

Itâs called being blown up. And because boxing is a striking sport - being lighter helps.

Because ivich doesnât seem to know much about Marciano, he doesnât take into account the type of person Marciano was and what made him great. Marciano trained harder than any fighter documented over the past 100 years. His personality lended to his training habits. Marciano is a strong, strong man. Marciano is great because he took his weaknesses and made them strengths. He fought with great intelligence considering how rough his style was. Marciano really understood fighting.

There is such a thing as bone diameter and density, but I don't know much about the subject. I doubt that thin boned people should be boxers at all. Marciano probably had thick bones all right, though I don't buy into you fist photo.

The biggest element that would in all likelihood prevent Marciano from specifically beating Wilder is that Rock generally takes a long time to finish his work. He doesn't have a long time. How many times before that is he going to be hit square by Wilder before he even begins to be effective? Wilder is no Moore or Walcott for boxing skill but he hits hella lot harder than either. Rock is not going to be that hard to find (don't kid yourself) for a guy with almost a 7 foot span, and Wilder doesn't mind delivering behind the ear when his man bends over.

I think you are going way overboard trying to convince the crowd that Marciano was invincible, which he wasn't. He had a great chin, yes, but it was never as well proven as Chuvalo's chin. His stamina and heart are probably unequaled. But I think his single punch is over heralded too. If he did not have the picture-perfect one punch KO of Walcott I don't believe he would even be in the discussion for hardest punching heavyweight, to be completely honest. What he had was the ability to punch his hardest throughout a fight, which is a powerful trait.

The short of it is, I don't believe he even gets to fight Wilder. I would expect him to be out cold or the fight stopped very early for cuts or out of mercy.

[Eff Pandas]

For me there is always a size vs skill graph I got in my head that the bigger you are the less skill you need to beat a smaller guy or the less mistakes the smaller guy can make & still win vs a bigger guy. This is relevant in pro boxing only at HW usually where size can range greatly & irl on the street where there aren't weight divisions if some sh^t goes down.

And for the most part this rings true in your examples. There is a size vs skill curve where a bigger guy will need less skill to beat a smaller guy &/or the smaller guy will need greater skill to beat the bigger guy.

[Ivich]

50 lbs of what though? Heavyweight has no weight limit. Thats why many of them carry weight.

you keep mentioning Marcianos small size. Yes heâs small, but his bones are very thick. His wrists and fists almost look cartoonish, as his wrists are nearly as thick as his fists. The mans built for punching. You wouldnât see that though, or look that deeply.

You have no idea how thick Marciano's bones were.
Stop Press!
Punchers come in all shapes and sizes.
Some like Bob Foster.Alexis Arguello,Lew Jenkins, Fitzsimmons, Choynski ,Robinson.Saddler,Wilder ,were comparatively skinny.

Some are squat thick types like Frazier.Marciano,,Tyson,Langford,Tua.

Whilst some squat thickly built guys like Lamotta,Fullmer, were not punchers.

Some heavily built muscular guys like McCline, Harold Johnson,Griffith, weren't punchers.
They come in all shapes and sizes.

No I wouldn't see that .I was watching Marciano's fights before you were born.

Basically your problem is anyone who disagrees with you, does not know what he is looking at.
Well, there are literally thousands out there who think posters like yourself have allowed hero worship to blind you from an objective appraisal of your idol.
Marciano doesn't make my top ten all time,he was too small ,had bad balance,wasn't quick, cut easily ,and his best wins are over older, past prime men.



Emmanuel Steward

[Ivich]

Itâs actually unreal how just 10 lbs at heavyweight is the sole determining factor for how great a fighter is.

it doesnât matter that they are named Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano. No, the only thing worth judging is the fact that they were too light.

I am not trying to be insulting here, but this is such a misguided view of boxing and I hope one day you will understand (those that need enlightenment).

I donât think the majority understand how great Marciano was.

Please do not put words in my mouth.
My statement was a man 200lbs plus is capable of beating anyone IF he is good enough.

I do not believe a man 185 lbs ,5 feet 10 and a half inches tall , with a 68inch, who did not have either quick feet or hands, was not a clever boxer, and who cut easily is capable of beating class modern sized heavyweights who can both box and punch.

There will always be isolated exceptions but, for the vast majority of the time my statement will hold true.

For every example you can produce appreciably more examples that rebut it can be shown.
If you wish to envisage Marciano against guys like Joshua,Fury, Lewis etc you have only to watch
Mickey Walker v Max Schmeling.
Walker beat big men who were not class or big punchers but, when he met one he got a fearful hiding.

Take a look at photos of Marciano in the ring with Ali for their entertaining but farcical computer fight.

Rocky looks like a dwarf against the 6ft 3 in Ali,now mentally add 3 more inches of height and 30lbs of muscle to Ali then add heavy duty punching power such as Marciano NEVER faced and tell me who wins those fights?

[Dr. Z]

Newer fighters started carrying more weight. They didnât know and still donât know what they were doing. Bulking didnât help those fighters.

So your are blaming the eating habits of the fighters 40+ years? That does not explain the lack of hight or reach in the modern heavyweight division.

[them_apples]

There is such a thing as bone diameter and density, but I don't know much about the subject. I doubt that thin boned people should be boxers at all. Marciano probably had thick bones all right, though I don't buy into you fist photo.

The biggest element that would in all likelihood prevent Marciano from specifically beating Wilder is that Rock generally takes a long time to finish his work. He doesn't have a long time. How many times before that is he going to be hit square by Wilder before he even begins to be effective? Wilder is no Moore or Walcott for boxing skill but he hits hella lot harder than either. Rock is not going to be that hard to find (don't kid yourself) for a guy with almost a 7 foot span, and Wilder doesn't mind delivering behind the ear when his man bends over.

I think you are going way overboard trying to convince the crowd that Marciano was invincible, which he wasn't. He had a great chin, yes, but it was never as well proven as Chuvalo's chin. His stamina and heart are probably unequaled. But I think his single punch is over heralded too. If he did not have the picture-perfect one punch KO of Walcott I don't believe he would even be in the discussion for hardest punching heavyweight, to be completely honest. What he had was the ability to punch his hardest throughout a fight, which is a powerful trait.

The short of it is, I don't believe he even gets to fight Wilder. I would expect him to be out cold or the fight stopped very early for cuts or out of mercy.

Wilder would be punching down and hes top heavy. I am willing to bet he would struggle to hit crouching Marciano and may not even land at all.

Wilder has a terrible stance, terrible body for boxing (he’s top heavy and chicken legged, chicken winged doesn't know how to move with punches and doesn’t know how to jab. He bench presses for training, I’ve never seen the guy run although I would hope he does at least a bit. Wilder has nothing but power, and not enough anyways to knock Marciano out.

Marciano can hurt Wilder. The thing with this fight, is due to Wilders terrible mobility this would probably end up being one sided in Marcianos favor. I’d figure Vitali to be a much rougher fight for Rock than Wilder.

[them_apples]

So your are blaming the eating habits of the fighters 40+ years? That does not explain the lack of hight or reach in the modern heavyweight division.

It doesn’t explain the height and reach because there were men that tall with long reaches back then too! And lots of them.

[Dr. Z]

It doesnâÂÂt explain the height and reach because there were men that tall with long reaches back then too! And lots of them.

Very few men had reaches of 80" or more and were over 6'2" tall back then.

Sure boxing had their share of circus employees back then 1915-1980, but they could not fight. They were only what is today a normal sized heavyweight in a world of tiny heavyweights.

Unless you think Willard, B Bear, Carnera and Simon were skilled men at boxing. Well, do you?

[Marchegiano]

Oh I am here. Please tell us which ranked heavyweight under 205 pounds since Mike Spinks was ranked back in 1987. Now go!

When I flipped this, you let it go, but in both cases the answer was already posted: Roy Jones Jr. only 3 pounds over the CW limit at 193 happened in the 2000s bud.